Important - Book Structure Question for All DC Forum users

[Marcus Bone]

Hi All,

Norm and I have been discussing the structure of the core rulebook and have come to some conclusions.

Recently, I've been having a bit of a mental tug-of-war over the final size of the core rule book, and what can be done to ensure that it covers all of the material it needs to without blowing out the page count. As you might know, there is a ratio between page size and cost in the print industry, and often it seems that a smaller book is more economical for all involved.

Therefore, we've come to a bit of a decision, and that is to publish Dark Conspiracy in two parts. One being a Player's Guide and the other a Referee's Guide.

I know, I know... this isn't exactly what I wanted either, but I can see no other way of producing a book that will probably have a final page count around 400 or more. The real problem is, that while the original 1st edition book was around 200 odd pages of rules, the supplements that followed added so much more to the game. These new rules and options, I see anyway, are core to Dark Conspiracy, and as such really need to be included in the 3rd Edition.

So, we've come up with the following idea, and we'd like you, as a sample of our stakeholders, to give us your comments on them.

Dark Conspiracy Core Rule book - This book will be very much like the 1st edition book, with all the rules, etc. required to play the game (i.e. Minion Hunters generation, task resolution, combat and healing, equipment etc.), but would not include the Referee explicit material (lists of Dark Minions, in depth background to the world of DC, Refing advice, etc).

Everything you need to actually play would be here, the page count would be around 200 pages and the cost to the end user would be cheaper.

"Sample Adventure" - Published at the same time as Core Rule book, this would have everything a Referee needs to run a short DC Campaign, and would include all the Referee only rules needed for the game. It will act as a Guide to Refing DC in a way that allows both them and their players learn and create their own world of Dark Conspiracy.

This booklet would be considerably smaller than the core rules (say 32 to 64 pages) and would have everything required to Ref the game (how NPCs and Dark Minions are used, appropriate DarkTek and Empathy rules, etc.)

Dark Conspiracy Referee's Guide - This would rehash the core ideas presented in the Sample Adventure in more depth, and would add the gaming options (in an expanded and extended format) first presented in the Supplements.

This book would be about the same size as the core rulebook and would allow us to explore more of the background to Dark Conspiracy without spoiling it for the potential players.

So, how do YOU feel about this? I have mixed feelings about it, as my initial goal was to have one core rule book. However, this new model does allow us to better separate out the game into its natural divisions and has the benefit in marketing terms of allowing players to own their own personal copy of the game.

I realise that this is a RPG paradigm that is somewhat different to that which I original envisioned, but this I see as an advantage, as it gives a niche in style and presentation. Anyway, give us your opinion.

Marcus

[Zvezda]

My answer to this is twofold. I personally would buy anything for any price. But I am probably the only person here who does so. I can see the dilemma, and I have no solution to offer but nonetheless I have my doubts about this. Don’t think that many players will buy the core rules. They would probably for 12$ or maybe even 25$ (the price of the old rules) but most likely not for $50. They’ll let the GM buy all the stuff and than make photocopies if necessary. From the experience of DC2 I can tell you that few people where willing to buy both books. Buying three books for a total of over 100$ will attract even fewer gamers I am afraid. One way I can see to make gamers buy all three books is to offer them in a slipcase. Additionally I think that people owning older versions of DC will probably only buy the core rules.
I especially dislike the idea of the adventure holding valuable information for the GM, not included elsewhere. Which would result in the fact that the GM would have to bring the adventure along every time the rules included there are probably required. That’s all for the beginning, there is more to come.

[Marcus Bone]

Aha, that's the point I suppose. Trying to give value for money. I'd prefer to see every roleplayer in the world own a copy of DC rather than just the dedicated few. I feel that if I can make the game as cheap as possible, then we've every chance of that occuring.

With this plan of action, I can see the Core rule book being 20 odd dollars, rather than 50.

Marcus

P.S. No information would appear in the adventure that wouldn't be replicated in the Referee's guide! The adventure would act as a 'guide' to running the game and point out how to run DC in a more detailed way than can be done in a traditional sourcebook.

[Zvezda]

Aha, that's the point I suppose. Trying to give value for money.

Somewhat, but the point also is to make gamers notice that DC is worth paying the price. It will be difficult in the Anglophone regions, but almost impossible (1 on a d20 with CHR: 5 and Persuasion:2) outside of them. Most people will have to mail-order the games. For each book they buy, they have to pay additional ~10$ post and packing, which (again) is quite some money. I am afraid that only well informed GMs will purchase three books on one order.
I am not sure that the cheapest books are the best, but I am sure that DC is in good hands with you. Quality comes with a price, but the competition is high. If you take a look at CoC for example (Cthulhu Now 244 pages less than 20$) it will be complicated to make GMs changes their system despite the fact that DC is by far the better game. I do what I can to help. By the way, what has happened to the playtester thing? I haven’t got any notice so far.
With the clarification on the ‘adventure’ I start to like the idea a lot. It will be especially good for new GMs.

[Mister E]

I was a little concerned with this model until you said that all the rules information found in the sample adventure would be in the Referee's Guide. I think the book break down you have here makes since. There is a reason that most games have two or three core books and I think you've struck upon why.

One question though, will the rules for making rogue ETs etc be in the Referee's guide, or the main book?

-E

[fenlason]

I was a little concerned with this model until you said that all the rules information found in the sample adventure would be in the Referee's Guide.

What? We can't copy the Games Workshop business model? Throw out a bunch of contradictory rules, then issue a later book that invalidates most of your investment?

But seriously, part of the rationale for seperate books is that there are a lot of rules that the GM may be interested in that fills many pages. If one carefully looks at D&D3.5 closely, there are only 3 books. But there is no, repeat no, content in those books. It is all rules (over 1000 pages) -- no background, no environment, no nothing -- just a promise of those things.

Dark Conspiracy is different in that the setting IS the game. So...

Only as much background & setting as is needed to create characters will be included in the first book. Most of that will be in the intermediate adventure book. The adventure will be developed to support multiple gaming styles and becomes the Mustering Out adventure for the Core Rules. Pages will be devoted to providing GMs setting guidance and playstyle support. It is a goal of DC3 to reduce reliance on the GM for the game and to share the responsibility for the story with the players. Setting and background options are encouraged to be negotiated between the players and GM. The intermediate book will provide guidance for doing this, which are not rules per se. What WILL be included in the intermediate book are rules needed to run the adventure. Things like NPCs, archtypes, etc.

The 3rd book will return to a rules-dominant form. It will contain setting & background details to again support potential play styles: bug-hunt, save-the-world, dark empathics, investigatatory, etc., focusing on "things players were not meant to know".

Alas, we do not have a place for Renegade ETs yet. I do not think Marcus includes them in the Player's Book. Our fist take at Renegade ETs was that so much depended on ET development (a grand undertaking) that to play a Renegade as a character could not be supported in the first go around. For example, the Empathic Sourcebook only detailed Grey ETs. What about tentacular and energy? How does a character play a renegade insectoid ET? I would also provide an ET specific empathic career/skill set instead of allowing them the Human Empathic specialties -- more pages. To cover these cases, IMHO, requires a seperate supplement, and believe me, I am not paid, so it is not for sales that I make that suggestion. Having said that, would you be interested in helping write that supplement? (unpaid like me and Lee?)

But this begs the question, really, what would you pay for additional books (assuming acceptable quality)? US$20 per supplement (96-192 pages)?


Norm

[Linden]

I know next to nothing about rpg publishing. However...wouldn't it be simpler to combine the sample adventure and ref's guide into a single book? As it is a prospective referee is going to have to possibly shell out twice. It seems to me that this won't make people well disposed towards the game. Possibly D20/D&D publishers can operate in this way, but they have a comparatively large, and fanatical, consumer base. DC doesn't, and as the aim is to persuade people to buy and play the game, any appearance of hitting the buyer in the pocket is going to militate against this.

[Zvezda]

To me $20 (or $30 overseas) seem appropriate, though I still think that there is not much use buying one book. The game will hardly be play able and the fun will be very limited.
Nonetheless I agree with Mr Dobski’s line of argumentation. After more than a year this forum has 52 members the biggest download of an issue of Demonground was ~500 if I remember correctly. That’s not too many. If the game comes at this price it is likely that that fewer people will test it (despite the excellent reviews we will write for all RPG sites in our native tongue). Anyways, having an adventure modul available is not the worst of things for the start. The lack of a mission included in the basic rules can be compensated by downloading one or two DGs…
As you can see I am very insecure about all that. Overall however I think the less the cost for the game is, and the fewer books are mandatory to run the game the better it will sell in the beginning.

[fenlason]

...the aim is to persuade people to buy and play the game, any appearance of hitting the buyer in the pocket is going to militate against this.

Yes this is a concern. But. It is normal marketing procedure to release a set of rules (1+ books) and then release background and supplementary material. The intermediate adventure is to actually be a supplement. But...

...it comes before GM rules!

But the Player's book does not have enough rules to run a game. Only enough rules to run the included adventure will be in the intermediate book and only because the GM book will not be released yet. The GM book will roll up any rules presented in the Supplement 0 book. If the GM would wait, she can skip the adventure supplement and get the GM book, saving her hard earned cash.

But I believe that the adventure book with accompanying background material will be desireable to players and GMs on its own merits.

I must confess that the goal is to get something out to you folks as soon as possible. But, it must be high quality and cannot be rushed. The GM book is taking longer than expected and is larger than expected when coupled with the player material.

So -- Supplement 0.


Norm

[Morthrai]

I am looking at this from several viewpoints: as a longtime diehard fan, as former editor and contributor to dear old Demonground (and the rest of the DC community), and of course as a member of the DCtRPG team. While it is a real shame that the single corebook idea is not practical, I am happy that the material is going to be released in a format that makes sense. Therefore, I'm behind you Marcus! If I didn't agree I'd say so, believe me.

Let's do this!

[wmtinneljr]

What if you made the "Sample Adventure" smaller and gave it away as a promotion as the game releases. Generates the excitement in the game and allows new people to be introduced to the game while pulling back us old timers into the world. People are used to buying series of books to be able to play, so I don't think there should be much of a concern over having the core split in two. The concern would be breaking back into the conscience of gamers.

[Marcus Bone]

What if you made the "Sample Adventure" smaller and gave it away as a promotion as the game releases. Generates the excitement in the game and allows new people to be introduced to the game while pulling back us old timers into the world. People are used to buying series of books to be able to play, so I don't think there should be much of a concern over having the core split in two. The concern would be breaking back into the conscience of gamers.

Good to have a new member to the forums wmtinneljr!

Yes - The idea will be to either produce the Sample Adventure as low cost PDF or as a slightly more expensive printed book.

Marcus

[Zvezda]

Hmm I guess there isn't much more to say, besides that there are some questions in the questions thread and: It is my first aniversary in the DC board!

[fenlason]

Skaven roughly equal to DC's super rats? A bit bigger though...

Hehe! I was more thinking of the smelly nukids. Yep what you said about the players and stuff is totally right.

More like the were-rats, but they do not use their human form. Having said that, I have a draft adventure about a colony of super-rats laying around here somewhere...more like skaven.


Norm

[Marcus Bone]

...but things are getting slightly off topic for this thread, so I've moved the last few posts to a new thread...

Just want to keep your thoughts about this new structure separate!

Sorry,

Marcus