One of my all time favourite RPG’s, but …

[Pure Mongrel]

G’day from Down Under!

(I present the following in the hope of healthy debate and a greater understanding of the game world. Please don't hurt me! )

DC was my go to RPG for many years and I was overjoyed to discover that there is a 3rd Ed in the works (almost as happy as I was to find this forum!).

As a game master, DC was my guilty pleasure. This was a game world that allowed me to conduct communal stories that appealed to me more than the other “generic” style game worlds. The ability to send my players into a tail spin with subtle twists and hidden agendas gave me hours of fun.

There is one thing that has never sat right with me in regards to the game world though. I could never bring myself to “believe” the day to day tech and social aspects. I just can’t see people going backwards, tech wise, no matter how bad things get (until nothing at all works, then I can see humanity having no issues picking up clubs and rocks )

In some ways, the day to day back drop of DC stole a lot of the conspiracy IMHO. A conspiracy should be completely hidden. The masses should be blissfully unaware that they are being subverted and used for a conspiracy to work.

I have no issue with the concept of life “sucking” for most people due to poverty and exploitation, but there is no “carrot” that I can see to keep people in place. There is nothing keeping their anger in check and nothing for them to aspire to.

Applying conspiracy theory to our world, the masses are kept in line by media, entertainment and a false sense of protection by governments (in the Western world at least). We aspire to get the latest toys, wear the latest fashion, drive the latest car, etc. The fact that we put ourselves in to major debt, there by forcing the majority to become wage slaves, hardly even registers as a concept for the greater community. The only time most people even give the government a thought is when polices impact directly (loss of work, higher taxes, etc.), or media outlets tell them.

To me, the DC world as set should have imploded. There is nothing but oppression to keep great unwashed masses in check (and when you have nothing left to lose, fear means little long term … especially to angry hungry mobs).

As such I always saw the DC universe as an alternate reality as opposed to a possible reality and for me that took away part of the “fear” for the player.

To me DC would be a truly scary game if the world setting seemed more like the evolution of our existing way of life as opposed to an alternative. All the Dark-Tek, minions, empathy and conspiracies would still fit well IMHO, but their existence would create a far bigger impact once the crumbs of truth become exposed.

Please don’t take these comments as a slight on the game, as I stated I love it. As anyone is able to do in an RPG, I changed the DC setting to suit my wants for the story telling.

It could be argued though that a 20 year old game needs its background tweaked to reflect the changes to the world during that time.

So am I alone in this thinking or did I miss the “point” somewhere along the line?

I am happy to be wrong as long as I get to understand

[Linden]

Hi Mongrel, interesting post.

Never had a problem with the game representing an alternative future, one where wars and other strife have held back technological and economic development. I think the retro-tech stylings and relative expense of some goods are appropriate to a world where there's not somewhere like present day China knocking out cheap electronics and other consumables by the dozen.

That said I think the technology in the game hasn't dated well, particularly computers. It was a mistake giving processor speeds in the descriptions of PCs and laptops. A more generic run-down of capabilities would have been better.

As to the oppression of the masses - I think it's depicted quite convincingly. You have an underclass (the ballotmen) who are paid just enough to sit around all day watching telly, a squeezed middle class desperately holding on to what they have, and an upper class who have pulled up the ladder and aren't going to drop it down again any time soon, if ever. Strikes me that it's not so different to what we have already, in Britain at any rate. If the proles get restless and kick off every now and then, well that's just a necessary safety valve and they can soon be brought under control by corporate security forces. As long as they trash their own neighbourhoods and stay out of the Dreamlands who cares? I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong answer to this one. DC to me always seemed to leave a fair bit open to interpretation when it comes to the near future dystopia - which is one of the things I like about it.

[Pure Mongrel]

You make some very valid points Linden.

After I made my post and gave thought to why I had drawn the opinions I outlined, it occurred to me that I was looking at it from a very narrow perspective … mine.

In Australia we use the term “Lucky Country” to define the life style we enjoy here, and as such my understanding of true social and economical pressures stem from history books (and I am almost ashamed to admit) media.

As Linden points out the social strains in England may be very different to those faced here, or in other countries.

So with this humbling thought in mind, different ideas sprung forth about possible DC world and adventures scenarios. (For instance what are the possible consequences of a Prole revolution within a large city? Fuelled by the anger of being downtrodden, pressure from gang territory wars and the expansion of Demonground (and its empathic influence), the stage is set for an explosive environment in which PC’s find their normal lives turned upside down by violence, horror and the glimpse of conspiracy.)

Tech is still a fly in my ointment though. Even with cheap knock offs, the tech is not going backwards; it’s just a poorer quality of current (commercially available) Tech. I could easily concede stagnation in TECH levels, but not a reversion. For instance I just bought a small Blutooth keyboard from eBay, of Chinese build, for $10Aus (delivered). The same style name brand keyboard here costs $60+. It works fine for my needs, but I doubt it would last long in the field as it were.


I could see Tech disappearing due to lack of resources, fossil fuel vehicles for instance, and as such find it hard to envisage a reversion to old tech cars. Yes these cars would still exist, but they would be rare and not sold at dealerships. I have an easier time seeing push bike dealerships VS old tech car sellers. Even cars produced in China or Eastern block states would use current Tech … it would just be of a “you get what you pay for” quality.

Computer Tech is a whole area unto itself. The way we have integrated this into our lives is staggering, and even if this Tech was to stagnate, the possibilities and resources available with today’s Tech for a computer-empath is mind blowing compared to what was envisioned twenty years ago.

Don’t get me wrong though, I am not advocating a “Shadowrun” or “Cyberpunk” style upgrade to the DC world (although I am sure elements of it would fit well in the Dreamlands), but I would recommend a revision based on current world tech and social interaction.

[ReHerakhte]

The tech aspects of the game do present some problems and in other forums in the past some members mentioned basically the same things that you have. Like Linden, I have no problem with retro-styling but I also can't bring myself to accept that technology would go backwards as much as is hinted at in the book. I realize that it's a 'flavour' element for the game and it's certainly interesting but I've tended to ignore it and set most of my campaigns in a more real world setting.

For example, modern radios have a number of parts in them that in the past were made from vacuum tubes, it doesn't make any economic sense to ditch the integrated circuits now in use to restart manufacture of vacuum tubes. You might drop back to transistors for non-essential parts but you're not going to drop your tech back to the level before transistors because you'd have to recreate an obsolete technology then build the plants to make those obsolete items.

For example, you're not going to start making items out of early generation plastics like Bakelite when you can just as easily (and economically) recycle later generation plastics such as modern thermoplastics like polyethene (PE) and polyvinyl chloride (PVC).
I have also come to believe (with the benefit of hindsight) that GDW itself probably underestimated the rapid advance of technology and materials that occurred in the 1990s-2000s period (though to be fair, I don't think many people realized it would be such a large change).

Fortunately the game allows a lot of tweaking in almost every element. In my latest campaign I have a retro-style fashion trend taking place amongst the Gnomes and filtering down to the Mikes. It kind of explains why people have personal items that do less than earlier tech items. These items don't make use of older tech, they simply don't have as many functions. For example, instead of having a mobile phone that has a camera, the internet, a personal organizer and a mapping function, the rich are buying phones that are just phones and nothing more, they are saying that they are so wealthy that they can afford to buy a phone that is just a phone, a camera that is just a camera and so on.

[Morthrai]

First off, welcome aboard!

This point has been discussed before of course, but here's my £0.02

A lot of what makes the DC world involves stagnation in my opinion (no better than anyone else's despite my involvement in the revamp!). The ballotmen, as Linden said, can exist in front of the telly. Most of them don't want change, or don't even realise it may be possible for them. The rich, as ever, get richer and buy ever-shiner things. If things get nasty they can afford muscle to get them out of trouble, if they bother to go out into the real world that is. Day to day technology is pretty much what you can buy these days from a dollar or pound store: it works for a while. Difference with the DC world is that most folks have to save up to buy these things at all.

As for cars, there are 2 ways of going to keep it within real-life believability: making nice modern body shapes whilst keeping older engines and drivetrains, or keeping an older shape and modernising the mechanicals. Let us not forget the original Volkswagen or the Checker Cab though; why change at all?

That's about it for now, coffee time.

[Zvezda]

Hell yeah! Mr. Mongrel is speaking the truth here! I could not have said it any better. Literally, since I do lack the English skill he has.

No, seriously. I agree with all of the above statements. I think the real DC background sucks. It does not work for me and the first thing I did was to drop it. If Trolls overrun your town twice daily you can hardly call it a conspiracy anymore. I have serious doubts that you could cover it up on the scale needed if you would follow the suggestions of the original gaming material.

I think the real world is often much more horrible than the imaginations of the DC authors. To a level which might be very uncomfortable for a lot of players. The technical development is a very good point. It won’t work like that. At least not without a good explanation. We have had these situations before but not on a global scale. In Japan and China technical advance was stopped by law for example in some periods. If technology is going backwards there should be a good reason for that. The power of the dark ones could be one. We have often discussed their inability do defeat real world technology with their DC Empathy Skills for example.

I also agree on the political situation but I want to remind of some aspects of the original DC background. First there are the out-laws, areas which need their own sourcebook in the future since they got next to no coverage in the core books. The government has effectively lost control over these areas and people there can do as they please. Grow hemp, manufacture snuff videos even produce consumer goods without paying taxes. Since it habours a lot of biker gangs the out-laws must have some operating filling stations. So here we have different forms of parallel governments in the different out-law regions or so I guess. This could on one hand be used as a vent. People suffering too much from oppression could move to one or the other biker gang, on the other hand it could justified massive defence budgets for the cities to keep those gangs at bay. Revolutionaries dwelling in the outlaws could on one hand make a good fortune from ruling the countryside but would risk a lot if they put too much pressure on the cities.

The social situation reflects in many ways that of the beginning of the last century. Millions of starving workers, aristocrats and something in the middle. The society worked than why should it not work in DC? I guess violent clashes between the poor and private security would be as common as 100 years ago. Like this, this or that.

An other aspect of preventing a radical change of society are the dark ones. Having the ability to project thoughts and emotions on people while also being able to read their minds would give them a great advantage over revolutionary movements. They don’t want change. After all the world of DC is the one they shaped. They could easily force minion hunters and other vigilante groups to conduct rampart terrorism or to split over minor issues to prevent the movement from gathering strength.

I think my statement has been somewhat confuse. Anyways. Having said that I must state that the first thing we did was to completely drop the DC background and work out one with was more suitable to our style of gaming. The good thing with DC is that you can actually do that without any problems. That is a big advantage over games like Shadowrun or CP2020 which are very hard to change even in small aspects. In my opinion both games have a much more implausible background than DC. Especially CP2020. Shadworun is a different type of game, which besides having guns has not much to do with the others. After all it’s dragons ruling the world in that game. You have to like that to play it.
To summarise the above: I don’t like the background of the game either, but I think it could work. Not in the real world, but it is consistent enough for the game I think. Since I did not like the background we changed it and it was an easy thing to do.

[Morthrai]

I think the real world is often much more horrible than the imaginations of the DC authors.

Absolutely right!

[Linden]

A lot of what makes the DC world involves stagnation in my opinion (no better than anyone else's despite my involvement in the revamp!).

I think I'm in agreement with Lee on this. Been reading a lot about the punk era lately and something that interested me was that in Britain in the mid-70s there was a lot of nostalgia for 60s and earlier music. There was a feeling that modern music had pretty much lost its way e.g. the excessive noodling of certain prog rock acts. I'd suggest that world of DC has a similar malaise but much more widespread, hence the harking back to older styles: The chunky cars, trenchcoats and hats for men, and the big radios. Functionally this stuff is going to be up to date but looks retro because that's what people want. Modern styling has hit a dead end (as an aside it makes me wonder if humanoid ET design aesthetics might be the next big thing).

[ReHerakhte]

Now that you mention it Linden, that's a damned good point. I think I've always taken it simply as "the technology has gone backwards" and I wasn't particularly happy with the notion for the reasons I mentioned above. I always thought that a stylistic movement regarding the tech was more likely and saw that that was quite obvious in the cars... but not much else.

The biggest indicator would have been clothing and music and that is a sadly neglected aspect of most RPGs let alone DC. R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk stresses the clothing aspect but it's one of only a few that do it to any degree and I don't think any of them bother with music.

I always got the impression from the book that GDW was trying to invest that retro-style into the game world but they seemed to try doing it through technology and not much else. It feels as though it is simply used to illustrate the difference between the haves and have nots.
My reaction to that has always been, tech may be less functional but it doesn't regress (especially when the Gnomes have so much high-tech gear at their disposal), unless something of apocalyptic proportions has occurred.

I think your comment is the best way to think of it though, the world has been drenched with mediocre 'everything' and style itself has played out, hitting that dead end. The retro-style harks back to a preceding generation, a time where things were supposedly better, they take the retro-style as some small way to capture that better time but corporations being the voracious, bloated entities that they are, see this nostalgia as another chance to fleece the populace and keep the income rolling in.

[Phulish]

The Merc 2000 background is a semi realistic world that drops right in.

[Linden]

The biggest indicator would have been clothing and music and that is a sadly neglected aspect of most RPGs let alone DC. R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk stresses the clothing aspect but it's one of only a few that do it to any degree and I don't think any of them bother with music. 

I wonder if that's because it's quite difficult to get right e.g I always found Cyberpunk's rocker boy faintly risible. Seemed to owe equal parts of his inspiration to early eighties new romantics and late decade cock rock bands like Warrant. Not a convincing look in my view. Incidentally the Cyberpunk UK source book mentions a new romantic nostalgia movement: 2020 Britain is apparently just like an episode of Ashes to Ashes only with metal gear and more guns.

The new romantic nostalgia thing is fine as an idea but I'd make it a cult sort of thing, not a national youth phenomenon.

I always got the impression from the book that GDW was trying to invest that retro-style into the game world but they seemed to try doing it through technology and not much else. It feels as though it is simply used to illustrate the difference between the haves and have nots.

That seems particularly true when you look at the pricing on stuff like PCs and mobile phones.

My reaction to that has always been, tech may be less functional but it doesn't regress (especially when the Gnomes have so much high-tech gear at their disposal), unless something of apocalyptic proportions has occurred.

Maybe some of the countries we rely on at present for mass produced goods might not be in too good shape (specifically China and some of the other far eastern countries - there's a fair bit of tension out there). Countries like Mexico are perhaps trying to take up the slack but have a way to go yet in terms of perfecting build quality. They'll probably get there, but not just yet. My Dad says when he was young "Made in Japan" meant tacky junk, but it's not really true any more.

I think your comment is the best way to think of it though, the world has been drenched with mediocre 'everything' and style itself has played out, hitting that dead end. The retro-style harks back to a preceding generation, a time where things were supposedly better, they take the retro-style as some small way to capture that better time but corporations being the voracious, bloated entities that they are, see this nostalgia as another chance to fleece the populace and keep the income rolling in.

Yes, I can see the corporations wanting to get their slice of the nostalgia market, but always being behind the curve: "I'm fed up of 40s style de-mob suits, everybody's wearing them. The Victorian gentleman look with top hat and tails is where it's at these days. Plus I'm gonna get me a Wedgewood effect stereo centre.*"








*As seen in the vintage Minder episode "The Son Also Rises"

[Morthrai]

I can see the corporations wanting to get their slice of the nostalgia market, but always being behind the curve: "I'm fed up of 40s style de-mob suits, everybody's wearing them. The Victorian gentleman look with top hat and tails is where it's at these days. Plus I'm gonna get me a Wedgewood effect stereo centre."

There is always a fusion of styles going on somewhere; I cite this video as an example. True, it's niche comedy but he still makes me chuckle and he's definitely in the market for a Wedgewood stereo

[Morthrai]

...the world has been drenched with mediocre 'everything' and style itself has played out, hitting that dead end. The retro-style harks back to a preceding generation, a time where things were supposedly better, they take the retro-style as some small way to capture that better time but corporations being the voracious, bloated entities that they are, see this nostalgia as another chance to fleece the populace and keep the income rolling in.

Oh yes, the 'Good Old Days' syndrome has a lot to do with it I agree. Here's a quote from the Max Headroom TV series that definitely has a DC world ring to it: "Remember when we said there was No Future? Well, this is it." (Blank Reg)

[Story]

G’day from Down Under!

(I present the following in the hope of healthy debate and a greater understanding of the game world. Please don't hurt me! )

To me DC would be a truly scary game if the world setting seemed more like the evolution of our existing way of life as opposed to an alternative.

To the OP, I believe the original DC designers were simply extrapolating how "things fell apart" in Third World areas like Africa, to a First World environment. In many ways, it's unnerving how accurate they were.

I'd suggest that anyone interested in the 'reality' of DC get a copy of THE FOURTH TURNING, which was published in 1997.



Strauss and Howe base this vision on a provocative theory of American history as a series of recurring 80- to 100-year cycles. Each cycle has four "turnings"-aHigh, an Awakening, anUnraveling, and a Crisis. The authors locate today's America as midway through an Unraveling, roughly a decade away from the next Crisis (or Fourth Turning). And they recommend ways Americans can prepare for what's ahead, as a nation and as individuals.
http://www.fourthturning.com/html/fourth_turning.html

They put the Third Turning as "the Culture Wars (1984 to 2005?)". That's pretty accurate forecasting, all things considered. This is a good page

http://www.fourthturning.com/html/turnings_3.html

and the wiki -

In 1997, the authors published The Fourth Turning, which expanded on the ideas presented in Generations. Examining 500 years of Anglo-American history, The Fourth Turning reveals a distinct historical pattern: Modern history moves in cycles, each one lasting approximately the length of a long human life (about 80–90 years), and each composed of four different types of mood eras, or "turnings". Offering a detailed analysis of the period from the Great Depression through today, the authors describe the collective persona of each living generation. These include the upbeat, team-playing G.I.s, the indecisive Silent, the values-obsessed Boomers, the pragmatic 13ers, and the new coming-of-age generation of upbeat, team-playing, Millennials. By situating each living generation in the context of a historical generational cycle and archetype, the authors claim to clarify the personality and role of each—and the inevitability of a coming crisis in America

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss_and_Howe

see also
http://www.fourthturning.com/html/winter_is_coming.html

[Pure Mongrel]

Had a personal conspiracy of my own ... not long after signing up to this forum my PC died!

(I would kindly ask the Computer Empaths that disagree with my posts to stop sending bad vibes down the Interwebs! )

Anyway now that I have built a new box I am back! (Did I just hear booing and hissing? )

Been reading through the posts and it is all very thought provoking. What is fascinating is the different perspectives, from different views in the world.

May be that is the issue I have with the DC background. It is kind of "one size fits all" ... and a world made up of so many different cultures, belief systems, norms, etc. can't be painted with the same brush.

Maybe we need to work on a DC world, "World Book"