Using Empathic Powers in the Game

[Linden]

I have a bit of trouble integrating empathic powers into my games, particularly Project Thought and Emotion. Specifically my problem is judging the effects of the various power levels, even with the guidelines in the rulebook. e.g. say a level 1 Project Thought allows the empath to implant a thought in the target's head, while stage 6 allows them to control the target like a puppet. The effect of stage 6 is pretty clear. However, with stage 1 does the target necessarily have to obey the thought? Particularly if it's an instruction such as telling a security guard to take a coffee break thus allowing the PCs to sneak into a building. Possibly the guard should get a willpower roll to see if they obey the instruction but willpower's already factored into the power level roll so a "saving throw" strikes me as largely redundant.

I find the whole area of fraught with difficulty and I'd be interested to know how everyone else deals with empaths and their skills.

[Zvezda]

I really recomend the 'Night Watch' books for that. They have a lot of examples how magic which alters the mind may work.
I always use a lot of GM judgement for that. A stage one success on an overworked and underpaied unmotivated guard would work very well in our game. She would leave and get her coffee. If the guard is a highly motivated person (probalby even convinced of the importance of his duty) he won't leave even though he would like to have a coffee. Normally however not even a very unmotivated guard would leave the job at a stage one success. But these things need a lot of improvisation.

[Paul Mann III]

Yeah, I use empathy very little in my games. I don't use it unless I need it to level the playing field over powerful PC's, or if a PC is using his empathy alot.

I get alot of use out foreboding though. It's a great direction tool, like "Spidey-Sense." Really guides a lost party back to the plotlines....

[Morthrai]

I have to admit I never liked the idea of the players knowing what stage of success they had acheived, as it means the referee has to come up with a reasonable explanation why they can do exactly "this much" and no more or less. (Example: Johnny rolls a Stage Three success and reads a couple of items from an enemy's mind. Will, another player, wants to know how come Johnny discovers more than Will did with a Stage Two.)

I don't let the numbers come into it Even if the players know what stage they have scored, I just describe what I feel to be a reasonable outcome for the roll. If it's good, then cars fly through the air, minds are wiped clean and occasionally heads explode...and if it's bad, cars stay firmly on the ground, minds fight back, and THEIR heads explode

[Linden]

Zvezda, Paul, Lee - thanks, very helpful. I'd sort of reached the conclusion that a fair amount of improvisation/winging it was necessary. Great minds think alike and all that (possibly as the result of a high empathy roll).

[Zvezda]

Very good point Lee, sometimes I give them the success levels but I think I should quit that. Your way makes a lot more sense.
I like the idea of improvising and roleplaying instead of numbers, but in various bad reviews on (of? what's the proper English here) DC 1 and 2 I have read that people dislike the blury Empathy rules.

[Morthrai]

I am glad that I managed to get my idea across I wasn't sure I had worded it properly but I was a little distracted when I posted that. At least it made sense!

[fenlason]

The rules were blurry to show how new and unreliable Empathy was supposed to be. The original concept was for emp to be rare. The desire to add spectacular effects into the game caused its current dilemma.

How empathy works is supposed to be unknown. Empaths are supposed to be normal Joes with weirdness about them, Not a character class capable of scientifically dropping a 10d6 fireball down a shaft.

Project Thought makes the input thought a part of the target's own. The 'caster' does not 'tell' the target to do something. The target just wants to do what is projected. The Level of Success imparts an urgency in the action.

Go get a cup of coffee?

Stage 1: At break I need some coffee
Stage 2: I can sneak a trip in, but maybe someone will see me.
Stage 3: Wow. gotta go get coffee.
Stage 4: Looks around to make sure no one sees him.
Stage 5: I'm getting some damn coffee. see ya.
Stage 6: Where did the guard go?

It is indeed subjective, but the rules are that the effects are commensurate with your campaign. Scanners? A level 1 will send the guard off. A 6 would make his head explode from his desire for coffee.

I know from personal experience that Lee is empathic. I's spooky.

Norm

[Morthrai]

I know from personal experience that Lee is empathic. It's spooky.

I don't think that's actually true (he said, trying to keep the Darklings from investigating his brain!), but what is definitely true is that Norm and I do have a tendency to understand each other's gaming ideas and expand on them. We are very much on the same wavelength as regards the DC world, and it's cool

Right now, I'm off to try and write some more DC-related fiction.

[Linden]

It is indeed subjective, but the rules are that the effects are commensurate with your campaign. Scanners? A level 1 will send the guard off. A 6 would make his head explode from his desire for coffee.

I think I mentioned on the movies thread that even a cursory viewing of Scanners indicates that it was a major influence on empathic powers in Dark Conspiracy. e.g. the scene where Kim Obrist makes the security guard have a breakdown after seeing his old mum is probably a stage 5 success - full on visual/auditory hallucinations. I just find it difficult to replicate in game, although having discussed the issue here I'm of the view that a certain amount of uncertainty/improvisation should surround empathic effects.

[fenlason]

I don't think that's actually true (he said, trying to keep the Darklings from investigating his brain!), but what is definitely true is that Norm and I do have a tendency to understand each other's gaming ideas and expand on them. We are very much on the same wavelength as regards the DC world, and it's cool

It's still eerie!

Norm

[fenlason]

I think I mentioned on the movies thread that even a cursory viewing of Scanners indicates that it was a major influence on empathic powers in Dark Conspiracy...

In first edition I once worked up a complete empath. Took only careers that boosted EMP. The best I could do would only yield a Stage 3 success, unless an Outstanding Success was rolled. In combat, that wasn't going to happen. It was at that point that my view changed regarding Empathy. It was just not predictable enough to do Hollywood things. I used this to good effect when characters did not know they rolled an outstanding success. Instead of lifting the keys to their cell off the table and to them, the table smashed into the cell door, splintering. Remember, the world is not supposed to be that well known to players or their characters...

The Empathic Sourcebook changed all that. It intended to add in Hollywood effects.

Norm

[Zvezda]

The good thing about empathy is that it is not too shadowrun for my taste. I also love the idea of not having Manapoints (or what ever source of energy!) This makes Empathy much more interesting than most other magic systems. Maybe examples like the one Norm gave could be included in the rules to make less creative GMs buy the game too. Even if fireballs are rather rare Empathy can to a lot of terrible things. There was for example that story when one guard was convinced by one empath to be his best pal form the common army time. The poor chap had however paid thousands of dollar to be spared form military service...very traumatic experience to sudeddenly have army memories.

[Linden]

Resurrecting this thread: I was wondering if task difficulties should be applied to DarK Minion empathy rolls. I'm thinking particularly of the "ghostly" ones like the Bleak or the Reaver. Would they necessarily suffer "great stress" during combat? If they did their effective skill is going to be pitifully low and thus they're unlikely to accomplish anything much against the PCs. Again, is it something that should be fudged as per the discussions above?

[Zvezda]

Absolutly not. Given that purely empathic beeings can hardly have the same pschology as humans they should not be treated that way. It is even more True for the original DC rules were ghosts are not the spirits of the dead but creatures from an other dimension. To apply the same rules to dark minions as to pc seemd so strange to us that we never used the system. For simplicity I always use the basic (x1) stats for the darklings under must circumstances. When the creatures seem to be especially violent they get x2 in combat. That's about it. When a special situation arises, like a vampire by day or something than the EMP skill can be rolled at x.05 but I can not actually remember that I ever have used this.