Purchasing Question
- ReHerakhte
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Unfortunately in regards to 2nd edition, there was a very limited market and the people at Dynasty Presentations understood that. However, they were a company composed of gamers and they wanted to see the DC material back in print - if nothing else it kept DC in people's memory and the 3 books released for the Sin City setting are quite good in my opinion.
I think the biggest mistake that Dynasty made was to produce the rule books in a Basic (180 pages) and a Masters (400 or so pages I think) version. Doubling the time needed and production costs to make two versions of the one book seems pointless to me. I get the feeling that people who bought the Basic versions took a good long look at them and thought "If this is the quality of the Basic version, I am not going to buy the Master version when they look so cheap & nasty".
If they had spent that time and money on making just the one set of rule books and got that into the shops, they may very well have had more success with their release of DC.
I think the biggest mistake that Dynasty made was to produce the rule books in a Basic (180 pages) and a Masters (400 or so pages I think) version. Doubling the time needed and production costs to make two versions of the one book seems pointless to me. I get the feeling that people who bought the Basic versions took a good long look at them and thought "If this is the quality of the Basic version, I am not going to buy the Master version when they look so cheap & nasty".
If they had spent that time and money on making just the one set of rule books and got that into the shops, they may very well have had more success with their release of DC.
It's not whether you win or lose,
It's whether I win...
It's whether I win...
Quality
I haven't seen them, but logic dictates you are absolutely right. Like I said before, I'd rather do things through HTML - not even PDF. HTML is so... I mean, when I first learned it (what I know of it, of course), I literally thought, "This is tailor-made for RPGs!"
I mean, you can link directly to whatever you're discussing right there, as you discuss it! You can have it open up in a new window atop whatever you're presenting so readers immediately know what you're referring to. Further, you can even include streaming media and the like, which print cannot handle. Whenever changes need to be made, there's no cost, minimal time and effort, and the distribution is immediate and wider; for the resources you expend, the distribution reach, and capabilities of the medium, you cannot beat HTML.
Plus, the quality is phenomenal. While offline line art can be wieldy (I'm having to scan pencils in at 1200+ DPI to capture all the details), you can still manipulate them down to usable size. Besides, we gamers are rabid - people will wait for quality images to load - they'll read the surrounding text in the meantime.
They can print-out whatever they want on their dime and advertisers provide revenue which allows you to offer it free to everyone! Truly beautiful system which compensates literally everyone, right down the line, and does exactly what we gamers always wanted: gives us free gaming materials which expand on the games we love, as well as provides the creator(s) with a little return so they can afford to spend more time bringing us even more content!
I mean, you can link directly to whatever you're discussing right there, as you discuss it! You can have it open up in a new window atop whatever you're presenting so readers immediately know what you're referring to. Further, you can even include streaming media and the like, which print cannot handle. Whenever changes need to be made, there's no cost, minimal time and effort, and the distribution is immediate and wider; for the resources you expend, the distribution reach, and capabilities of the medium, you cannot beat HTML.
Plus, the quality is phenomenal. While offline line art can be wieldy (I'm having to scan pencils in at 1200+ DPI to capture all the details), you can still manipulate them down to usable size. Besides, we gamers are rabid - people will wait for quality images to load - they'll read the surrounding text in the meantime.
They can print-out whatever they want on their dime and advertisers provide revenue which allows you to offer it free to everyone! Truly beautiful system which compensates literally everyone, right down the line, and does exactly what we gamers always wanted: gives us free gaming materials which expand on the games we love, as well as provides the creator(s) with a little return so they can afford to spend more time bringing us even more content!
- [url=http://www.theweirding.net/RPG/DC/]ManoDogs[/url]
Re: Purchasing Question
Coming late to this, I was in the playtesting, and was starved for a new edition. We all thought it would work out and with some of the talent behind the new writing (Mike, Geoff and the rest) the bulk of us were optimistic that these books would be what we'd hoped for.
We were sold on the "Lightning Press", early print-on-demand tech as a way to get the books faster and cheaper than the rest of the industry at a little cost to quality. I saw a similar run in some of the Space 1889 stuff a few years back. It wasn't terrible, but yes it was a step down from GDW's original quality. That saddened me. The editing and compilation work I would agree was piss-poor. I occasionally see Tony Lee at GenCon and each time have to suppress the urge to ask him "Head or gut?" over where he's due a punch for that. He phoned it in. Ken was more of a business man. I don't think he was that in love with the setting. Perhaps it's a bit cynical of me, but he seemed more in it for the buck to be made than the revival of our obsession. And it could also be that I dealt with both of them regarding the abortive Traveller 4th Edition that they screwed the pooch on as well. I wouldn't trust 'em with another project...ever.
The Sin City books were outstanding for their written material. You had some of the best of our fan base writing quality material. We weren't the only ones lucky enough for that. MJ Dougherty and a few others, for example, were doing the same thing for Traveller: New Era. GDW seemed to enjoy an abundance of talented fans. I have them all, but it should be obvious as to why. I was really wanting the material to succeed and even excused the substandard print editions. I will agree with what others wrote that the Basic/Master idea was a horrible one. Doesn't work for a limited-scope and fan base like ours.
I would have loved to have seen a true 3rd Edition put out by the same folks I see here. Talent and TLC counts for a lot and again this fan base has it in spades. Just look at the guy who wrote the new Twilight 2K edition a couple years back from 93 Games Studio. It took him a couple of years to put that book together, and the final work wasn't bad at all. He even offered it in paper and pdf as a combo pack, which I think was a very smart move. Too bad, but you're all still here, so that's something.
We were sold on the "Lightning Press", early print-on-demand tech as a way to get the books faster and cheaper than the rest of the industry at a little cost to quality. I saw a similar run in some of the Space 1889 stuff a few years back. It wasn't terrible, but yes it was a step down from GDW's original quality. That saddened me. The editing and compilation work I would agree was piss-poor. I occasionally see Tony Lee at GenCon and each time have to suppress the urge to ask him "Head or gut?" over where he's due a punch for that. He phoned it in. Ken was more of a business man. I don't think he was that in love with the setting. Perhaps it's a bit cynical of me, but he seemed more in it for the buck to be made than the revival of our obsession. And it could also be that I dealt with both of them regarding the abortive Traveller 4th Edition that they screwed the pooch on as well. I wouldn't trust 'em with another project...ever.
The Sin City books were outstanding for their written material. You had some of the best of our fan base writing quality material. We weren't the only ones lucky enough for that. MJ Dougherty and a few others, for example, were doing the same thing for Traveller: New Era. GDW seemed to enjoy an abundance of talented fans. I have them all, but it should be obvious as to why. I was really wanting the material to succeed and even excused the substandard print editions. I will agree with what others wrote that the Basic/Master idea was a horrible one. Doesn't work for a limited-scope and fan base like ours.
I would have loved to have seen a true 3rd Edition put out by the same folks I see here. Talent and TLC counts for a lot and again this fan base has it in spades. Just look at the guy who wrote the new Twilight 2K edition a couple years back from 93 Games Studio. It took him a couple of years to put that book together, and the final work wasn't bad at all. He even offered it in paper and pdf as a combo pack, which I think was a very smart move. Too bad, but you're all still here, so that's something.
- ReHerakhte
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Re: Purchasing Question
Hey Rob, (welcome to the forum too), thanks for the extra information on 2nd Ed./Dynasty Presentations. I'm always interested in hearing stories from those who were involved or were 'nearby'. We never really see all that goes into the creation, distribution etc. etc. so it's great to get some additional insight from those who were there.
You know, I can forgive the print-on-demand plan and the lower quality because it probably was one of the few alternatives to the huge outlay of money needed for a traditional print run but the notion of Basic and Master copies was I believe, a very poor decision. It felt like a quick & cheap way to get some money into the coffers before actually committing to the launch of 2nd Ed.
To make it worse still, I remember the webpage stating that to actually buy the Master copies, you had to buy the Basic set and then tear off the front cover and send it to Dynasty who would then sell you the Master set.
I'm pretty sure I've remembered all that correctly! That notion was doomed to failure, I cannot imagine many fans of any RPG spending double the money for a repeat of the rules let alone deliberately tearing off the front cover of a book for that purpose. It seems to me that that was one of the primary reasons 2nd Ed. failed to sell.
Having said all that, I'll also say again that the Sin City series was and still is great. I managed to get all three books after a number of years and I'm glad to see that Far Future has put all the game material onto a CD-ROM but Damn! I wish Dynasty had been around long enough for the other three books (of the six that were advertised) to be printed.
And as mentioned, there are some people around who are keeping the game alive, specifically those behind Demonground, this forum, Protodimension and of course the new adventure and the 3rd edition.
You know, I can forgive the print-on-demand plan and the lower quality because it probably was one of the few alternatives to the huge outlay of money needed for a traditional print run but the notion of Basic and Master copies was I believe, a very poor decision. It felt like a quick & cheap way to get some money into the coffers before actually committing to the launch of 2nd Ed.
To make it worse still, I remember the webpage stating that to actually buy the Master copies, you had to buy the Basic set and then tear off the front cover and send it to Dynasty who would then sell you the Master set.
I'm pretty sure I've remembered all that correctly! That notion was doomed to failure, I cannot imagine many fans of any RPG spending double the money for a repeat of the rules let alone deliberately tearing off the front cover of a book for that purpose. It seems to me that that was one of the primary reasons 2nd Ed. failed to sell.
Having said all that, I'll also say again that the Sin City series was and still is great. I managed to get all three books after a number of years and I'm glad to see that Far Future has put all the game material onto a CD-ROM but Damn! I wish Dynasty had been around long enough for the other three books (of the six that were advertised) to be printed.
And as mentioned, there are some people around who are keeping the game alive, specifically those behind Demonground, this forum, Protodimension and of course the new adventure and the 3rd edition.
It's not whether you win or lose,
It's whether I win...
It's whether I win...
- Morthrai
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Re: Purchasing Question
Just to say, I originally got online just at the time that DPI were starting out. I heard a lot of tales about how things were being done, and even a few things about the attitudes of the people involved. Obviously, being on the opposite side of the Atlantic I had no frame of reference and so I never got involved in that kind of discussion.
However...I have to say I wasn't too surprised that it didn't work out.![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
However...I have to say I wasn't too surprised that it didn't work out.
![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
Lee Williams.
"Superstition is the name the ignorant give to their ignorance"
"Superstition is the name the ignorant give to their ignorance"
- Morthrai
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Re: Purchasing Question
We intend to stay true to ourselves and to you guys, but there again we are "you guys"ReHerakhte wrote:And as mentioned, there are some people around who are keeping the game alive, specifically those behind Demonground, this forum, Protodimension and of course the new adventures and the 3rd edition.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Lee Williams.
"Superstition is the name the ignorant give to their ignorance"
"Superstition is the name the ignorant give to their ignorance"
- Pure Mongrel
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Re: Purchasing Question
I purchased the core books as they were the only ones I could find at the time.
If available today (printed or PDF) I would purchase them!![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Edit: Just found the PDF's @ DriveThruRPG ... now they are MINE! (Insert evil laugh here
)
If available today (printed or PDF) I would purchase them!
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Edit: Just found the PDF's @ DriveThruRPG ... now they are MINE! (Insert evil laugh here
![Twisted Evil :twisted:](./images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)
![Image](http://www.theoldergamers.com/forum/avatars/10598.gif?type=sigpic&dateline=1273615811)
- "When Injustice Becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty!"
- ReHerakhte
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Re: Purchasing Question
Hey welcome to the forum,Pure Mongrel wrote:I purchased the core books as they were the only ones I could find at the time.
If available today (printed or PDF) I would purchase them!
Edit: Just found the PDF's @ DriveThruRPG ... now they are MINE! (Insert evil laugh here)
Nice to see another Aussie here, pity we're on opposite sides of the country!
But anyway, yeah if you want know where you can find Dark Conspiracy material this is the right place. You've already found the books you want on DriveThruRPG but you can also get all the 1st edition or all the 2nd edition material on a CD-ROM from Far Future Enterprises link here
Cheers,
Kevin
It's not whether you win or lose,
It's whether I win...
It's whether I win...
- Pure Mongrel
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Re: Purchasing Question
Thanks for the welcome ![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
![Image](http://www.theoldergamers.com/forum/avatars/10598.gif?type=sigpic&dateline=1273615811)
- "When Injustice Becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty!"
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- Prole
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Re: Purchasing Question
I voted no, but I was keen to. I was just out of gaming for awhile and didn't even know a 2nd ed. was available ![Embarassed :oops:](./images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
![Embarassed :oops:](./images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
- ReHerakhte
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Re: Purchasing Question
It was only because of Demonground ezine that I knew of 2nd edition at all. It certainly didn't get much advertising here in my little corner of Australia and when the one and only game shop in town got copies in, they only ever had the Ref and Player Guides, never the Sin City adventures.
Even then, they only had about 6 or so copies of the Guides for sale.
Even then, they only had about 6 or so copies of the Guides for sale.
It's not whether you win or lose,
It's whether I win...
It's whether I win...
- Morthrai
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Re: Purchasing Question
ReHerakhte wrote:It certainly didn't get much advertising here in my little corner of Australia and when the one and only game shop in town got copies in, they only ever had the Ref and Player Guides, never the Sin City adventures
Geoff once told me that the dead-tree versions of the Sin City books were printed in very limited numbers, only about a hundred or so for his part I believe. I got mine for nothing as a thankyou gift from the guys for helping out with Demonground
![Cool 8)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
Lee Williams.
"Superstition is the name the ignorant give to their ignorance"
"Superstition is the name the ignorant give to their ignorance"
Re: Purchasing Question
I voted yes on the purchasing of the Core Rule books. I actaully only bought the basic edition, though one of my players did purchase and download the master edition books from Drive Thru RPG and shared those with the group.
I am very pleased with many of the new editions, though there are some game mechanics that I am still having a hard time swallowing. Like for instance the fact that there can only be one action per combat phase. I really don't agree that you can't take two to four steps towards a target and engage them by throwing a kick or punch or grapple. I think 6 seconds is more than enough time to shift and attack. Also, dropping a weapon and drawing a weapon should be aloud to be done in a 6 second window as well.
As I have expressed in another post, the ability for a true neuropath to "push" their empathic abilities has way too much cost for very little reward. I have modified the rules in my campaign to allow the neuropath to push their ability and get one of three results on a successful push; increase the targets effected, increase the range or area of effect, increase the power level of the ability used.
Also, there are some skills that are described in a fasion that I don't agree with. For example, engineering in the game reflects a general knowledge of structural design, material strengths, and construction techniques. I disagree with this as engineering reflects the skill of knowing much more than structural or construction knowlege. I believe this skill should give knowlege for such things as building weapons or electronic equipment (if teamed with electronics of course) as well as developing new items for use in game. I've run into some of my players wanting to design and build new things in game with their characters, but they lack the proper skill set in which to do it. And engineering, per the game rules, does not allow them to do such. I've ruled the engineering skill to allow this so we can cover the bases required in devoloping new items and equipment.
Another thing I had a problem with in the skills system is the placement of some skills under their governing atributes. For example, mechanics is under Strength. This skill is described in the rules as:
This reflects a knowledge of how to build and repair machinery in general. Difficulty of the build or repair task will be set by the referee. If improper tools are available, increase any task difficulty levels by one.
If this is a knowledge then why is it located under Strength? I would think, and have ruled, that this is an application of education rather than strength due to it being a knowledge based skill.
Luck should probably fall under empathy as it is an super-human ability to manipulate the situation. (re-rolling a failed roll) Though in saying that, i've kind of accepted the fact it falls under charisma for those characters that are unlucky during character creation who only roll a 1 in empathy. They would be at a major disadvantage from the rest of the group of characters in their party that are lucky enough to have a 1 in empathy.
There's a few other skills that I have questioned, however, I can't justify moving them to another controlling atribute by enough reason to mess with them. So I just accept them and leave them be.
Another thing that i've found through running the game in 2nd ed is the penetration rules for weapons are really vague and have risen so many questions in game play with my players that it's hard to justify why they are the way they are.
Another thing that is insanely complicated is the very detailed rules on explosions. I feel that this could easilly be simplified by just assigning damage dice to a certain area of effect. With that said, I understand that wearing armor and taking cover will greatly reduce this damage (which could be done by just removing damage dice from the roll). Another question in this is how do you determine where the explosion hits a person or is damage taken over the whole body? How many hit locations are effected, all or would you roll a "to hit" roll for each location? I also understand the desire for concussion damage with explosions. Isn't there an easier way of determining the concussion damage? Couldn't we just create a table, or adjust the weapon tables to include a set concussion number. I do realize that in the 2nd edition book it has a table on page 193 for cuncussion/penetration values. This still is hard to follow, but makes things a little more simplistic.
I'm sure I have other quams, but for now I will leave it at that.
I am very pleased with many of the new editions, though there are some game mechanics that I am still having a hard time swallowing. Like for instance the fact that there can only be one action per combat phase. I really don't agree that you can't take two to four steps towards a target and engage them by throwing a kick or punch or grapple. I think 6 seconds is more than enough time to shift and attack. Also, dropping a weapon and drawing a weapon should be aloud to be done in a 6 second window as well.
As I have expressed in another post, the ability for a true neuropath to "push" their empathic abilities has way too much cost for very little reward. I have modified the rules in my campaign to allow the neuropath to push their ability and get one of three results on a successful push; increase the targets effected, increase the range or area of effect, increase the power level of the ability used.
Also, there are some skills that are described in a fasion that I don't agree with. For example, engineering in the game reflects a general knowledge of structural design, material strengths, and construction techniques. I disagree with this as engineering reflects the skill of knowing much more than structural or construction knowlege. I believe this skill should give knowlege for such things as building weapons or electronic equipment (if teamed with electronics of course) as well as developing new items for use in game. I've run into some of my players wanting to design and build new things in game with their characters, but they lack the proper skill set in which to do it. And engineering, per the game rules, does not allow them to do such. I've ruled the engineering skill to allow this so we can cover the bases required in devoloping new items and equipment.
Another thing I had a problem with in the skills system is the placement of some skills under their governing atributes. For example, mechanics is under Strength. This skill is described in the rules as:
This reflects a knowledge of how to build and repair machinery in general. Difficulty of the build or repair task will be set by the referee. If improper tools are available, increase any task difficulty levels by one.
If this is a knowledge then why is it located under Strength? I would think, and have ruled, that this is an application of education rather than strength due to it being a knowledge based skill.
Luck should probably fall under empathy as it is an super-human ability to manipulate the situation. (re-rolling a failed roll) Though in saying that, i've kind of accepted the fact it falls under charisma for those characters that are unlucky during character creation who only roll a 1 in empathy. They would be at a major disadvantage from the rest of the group of characters in their party that are lucky enough to have a 1 in empathy.
There's a few other skills that I have questioned, however, I can't justify moving them to another controlling atribute by enough reason to mess with them. So I just accept them and leave them be.
Another thing that i've found through running the game in 2nd ed is the penetration rules for weapons are really vague and have risen so many questions in game play with my players that it's hard to justify why they are the way they are.
Another thing that is insanely complicated is the very detailed rules on explosions. I feel that this could easilly be simplified by just assigning damage dice to a certain area of effect. With that said, I understand that wearing armor and taking cover will greatly reduce this damage (which could be done by just removing damage dice from the roll). Another question in this is how do you determine where the explosion hits a person or is damage taken over the whole body? How many hit locations are effected, all or would you roll a "to hit" roll for each location? I also understand the desire for concussion damage with explosions. Isn't there an easier way of determining the concussion damage? Couldn't we just create a table, or adjust the weapon tables to include a set concussion number. I do realize that in the 2nd edition book it has a table on page 193 for cuncussion/penetration values. This still is hard to follow, but makes things a little more simplistic.
I'm sure I have other quams, but for now I will leave it at that.
Re: Purchasing Question
Nivicus wrote:
Luck should probably fall under empathy as it is an super-human ability to manipulate the situation. (re-rolling a failed roll) Though in saying that, i've kind of accepted the fact it falls under charisma for those characters that are unlucky during character creation who only roll a 1 in empathy. They would be at a major disadvantage from the rest of the group of characters in their party that are lucky enough to have a 1 in empathy.
I've never had a problem with this, fortune favours the brave, or at least those with a bit of front.
"There's a lot of dignity in that, isn't there? Going out like a raspberry ripple."