A reason for Dark Conspiracy's retro-tech?

[ReHerakhte]

The retro-tech idea plays it's part in shaping the game world but aside from the Greater Depression there's little explanation of why it's there. Even if a company can no longer produce high tech items, there's no realistic incentive to take a backward step and remake older generations of technological items.
It's bad business sense to try and remake obsolete production methods, you can't make money by going backwards. Even those companies that exist in the real world to supply components to old tech items such as WW2 military vehicles for the restoration crowd or authentic looking military foodstuffs for the military re-creation crowd, use modern techniques, modern materials and modern technologies to make those items.
However...

What if, in the game world, instead of companies producing that old tech, they merely produced components to keep it running? That would be more profitable than switching over to produce older generation items and we have examples in the real world to work from.
One component that would probably make the largest difference is the software used to run various electronic devices. For example, there are millions of mobile/cell phones made obsolete every few years and while some are recycled, just as many are consigned to rubbish dumps (and the recycling process only attempts to recover the most expensive materials in the phone, there's still a lot of wastage).
But if an operating system was available to make that obsolete phone functional at, at least, a basic level, the phone might be a viable alternative for some Mikes that can't afford the latest high-tech phone. Proles would be able to use obsolete phones scavenged from the rubbish heap.

And it's not specifically mobile phones, the software would apply to any device that uses some sort of operating system; phones, tablets, laptops and more.
Such software is being developed now. It's being designed to run on minimal system requirements and systems that have been improvised.
Called, appropriately enough, "Collapse OS", it's claimed the software could run on a Sega Genesis gaming console.

More here: - https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywaq ... apocalypse

[Morthrai]

Reminds me of a similar topic we covered during one of the many discussions on the Facebook group - the real reason for the retro style of cars in DC was actually so that you could drive something that wasn't full of technology such as engine management systems that could be hacked relatively easily

[ReHerakhte]

That idea of hacking everyday products is slowly getting more prominence in the real world as more people in the 1st World start buying into the "Internet of things" and AV companies try to inform people of the risks of having their computers hacked by other devices in their home.
To my mind, it makes for a very compelling reason for the middle classes in DC to go for tech that is less reliant on electronics. I think the wealthy classes won't be so bothered because they have the money to pay for the high level of electronic security needed.

What I find really interesting is that this idea creates a layering of technology that can be identified by the social strata it's most commonly in use with. In our world, even those on lower incomes can afford the latest mobile phones. A typical difference between the wealthy and the less wealthy is not displayed so much in the technology level of items they own but simply in the price and capabilities of those items. For example, a 2000s era Toyota family sedan has the same tech level of electronics, braking systems, engine systems etc. etc. as a 2000s era Ferrari. Yeah okay the Ferrari has some capabilities the Toyota doesn't but the tech level required to make, maintain and use the two is pretty much the same.

For DC, I can well imagine the Mikes using retro-tech items because they cannot afford the levels of IT security necessary to protect themselves but the Gnomes have all manner of wonderous devices (by comparison) because they can afford to buy the latest IT protection.
As for the Proles... well, they'll have to make do with whatever they can cobble together from the items cast off by the Mikes and Gnomes.
So, we kinda get the following: -
(Ultra Gnomes - yeah I just made that up to indicate those at the absolute highest levels of wealth - State of the Art tech AKA SotA tech) **
Gnomes - high tech, comparable to the electronic devices we see today
Mikes - retro-tech, comparable to a 1970s-1990s level of tech in a general sense, although some high tech devices will be in use e.g. medical equipment
Proles - salvaged-tech/lifehacked tech


** This idea of the ultra-wealthy is already in evidence in the real world, I imagine DC to be similar but having not only obscenely rich individuals but corporations holding extreme levels of wealth as well. The senior personnel of those ultra-wealthy corps are going to have a nice fat paycheque as well as any other perks available - elevating them to a level of wealth & resources above even the Gnomes.

[Linden]

The Hostile RPG has a reasonably detailed explanation for why its computers and other electronics resemble the ones in Alien, Outland etc. I forget the specifics but a major hacking event is certainly one of the reasons.

[ReHerakhte]

That's something that would be a good fit with what I posted above - a major hacking event leads to the need for greater security, the security ends up being quite costly but the event also eroded the faith of many people (mainly the Mikes) in IT devices.
In that, we have security for IT... if you can afford it i.e. the rich, and we also have a large scale abandonment of IT devices by arguably the largest segment of the population, the ones who buy most of the consumer goods.

It all helps to create the technological divide.
Thanks for the tip Linden, think I'm going to check in on Hostile to get some more info!

[Linden]

There's also the last segment of David Mitchell's novel The Bone Clocks takes place in mid-21st century Ireland after an internet crash wrecks world infrastructure. I don't recall the exact nature of the catastrophe, possibly someone typed "Google" into Google.

If you have a look at the Hostile technical manual (available for free on DriveThruRPG) it gives a number of reasons for retro-computer technology including the collapse in Moore's Law, hacking events and a nuclear terrorism incident which causes widespread EMP damage. Consequently ICT tech stays chunky* and hard wired.

*Something to be said for it. I'm typing this on an emachines e520 that I gave to my parents which weighs a tonne but is still going strong after ten years. Outlasted at least three other lighter laptops I've had.

[ReHerakhte]

This is an aspect of modern electronics that's often overlooked - they need less power than ever to do their thing and thus use components that are lighter/smaller and as a consequence are much more fragile than the previous generation of electronic devices.
As for wireless tech, there's a number of problems it can have that are, surprise surprise, solved by using a cable to hard-wire the devices (plus you can increase a cables protection from being hacked by increasing the amount of shielding around it which could be as simple as laying the cable deeper under the ground, none of which you can do with a wireless transmission)

I believe the retro-tech concept in Dark Conspiracy needs a better explanation for why it exists, a poor economy is a silly reason for going backward in tech levels. I think what we have been thrashing out here makes for a more realistic reason for the retro-tech but more importantly than that, I think it offers a more believable reason for retro-tech (I don't have to adhere slavishly to realism but I do want something that allows my players to suspend their disbelief).
I'm pretty much going to use, in some manner, all of the ideas expressed here, that is to say, a number of factors have caused a desire for retro-tech.
So, a basic list: -
A major hacking event
Costly IT security
Damage to IT infrastructure by radical elements and/or natural disaster (e.g. solar flare)
Distrust in advanced IT devices because of all of the above
The realization that a lot of older generation IT devices will work well enough if given suitable software
A demand for less advanced (i.e. more robust) tech caused by all of the above, creating a viable market for retro-tech

Anybody think of anything else? Like I mentioned, this isn't a drive for "ultimate realism", more a desire to create a game-world believable reason for retro-tech to be relevant and so prevalent.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to come up with a good deep level, far ranging conspiracy as the underlying reason for the Dark Conspiracy so I can hook my game group into a campaign of DC. They're not going to be particularly interested in monster of the week type games and I want to make DC different enough so that they don't treat it like its Cthulhu in a different skin. So to that end, I'm trying to push the mystery, tech-thriller and conspiracy angles.

[Linden]

I've not run DC for a while but I think I'd be happy with the angle that technology has developed in a different way to the real world. For the reasons we've discussed. Also I think you could perhaps make a similar argument for retro-stylings of buildings, furniture and cars i.e. that art-deco and older styles have made a come back. It does happen from time to time. Here in the UK you can perhaps point to the resurgence of flared trousers during the "Madchester" era.

[ReHerakhte]

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that.
And what's worse, I didn't even think of the current nostalgia kick that's happening among the 20 to 30 age group for games, music etc. etc. from the 1980s-90s. This is amazingly relevant now that I realize it because this is a nostalgia for the past by people who weren't even born to experience it in the first place. It should have stuck me earlier because I've seen it first hand - it's quite jarring talking to 30 year olds who try to tell me how things were in the -80s & -90s
That same type of yearning by a large enough segment of the buying public could be a significant force for the introduction of retro-tech - if a corporation thinks they can make money from it, it's a fairly simple business decision to decide to fill that gap in demand.


On a side note, for those of you who have played both Call of Cthulhu and Dark Conspiracy, what do you think are the differences between the two that make them distinct from each other?
The reason I ask is that I have my ideas but I want to hear what others think. This has been prompted by a discussion with my gaming gang tonight where one of the players said she wasn't so keen on DC because it was too similar to CoC.
I believe there is enough difference (quite a big difference, even just on the surface before you dig into anything) between them and while I know DC has taken some inspiraction from all those horror games that game before, I don't see DC as being too similar to CoC.
What do others think?

[Linden]

On a side note, for those of you who have played both Call of Cthulhu and Dark Conspiracy, what do you think are the differences between the two that make them distinct from each other?
The reason I ask is that I have my ideas but I want to hear what others think. This has been prompted by a discussion with my gaming gang tonight where one of the players said she wasn't so keen on DC because it was too similar to CoC.
I believe there is enough difference (quite a big difference, even just on the surface before you dig into anything) between them and while I know DC has taken some inspiraction from all those horror games that game before, I don't see DC as being too similar to CoC.
What do others think?

I've always regarded them as similar, but not too similar. Important differences for me are:

1. CoC often has an existential bleakness about it. The Great Old Ones are frequently unstoppable and their schemes can only be delayed and disrupted, never defeated. Then there's the constant whittling away of sanity as the investigators delve deeper into the mythos. In contrast the odds are against DC's minion hunters but there is a faint hope that they can win out against the dark. They also don't pay the same pyschological price for knowledge that CoC's investigators do.

2. Allied to 1. above is that DC characters often have an advantage in game terms over many of their adversaries. Lots of hit points in various locations before they turn up their toes. CoC's investigators have the same stats as everyone else and can as easily be put out of action by a mook with a knife as a ravening ghoul or dimensional shambler.

3. Violence is a legitimate, and possibly even expected, response in DC. You've got the stat advantage mentioned above plus copious lists of ironmongery. Plenty of DC monsters are vulnerable to a well placed hail of bullets. Plenty of CoC's aren't. I'd also suggest that CoC is perhaps geared towards investigation while DC is more about action.

4. CoC makes more use of what I think of as the traditional occult - books, spells, and magic items. DC is more about weird science and psychic powers. Arguably there is an overlap between the two approaches. e.g. Delta Green suggests that magic effects are the products of "hypergeometry" - the application of mathematical and scientific principles we don't yet understand, and possibly never will without going mad in the process.

5. The default settings are very different - the past of CoC, the future for DC. That said I think it's easier to adapt CoC to other time periods than it is DC. I would like to run a DC game in an alternative 1970s or 80s setting though.

6. DC gives you more leeway how you want the game universe to run. Who the main antagonists are, relationships between them, what they're after. Thanks to HPL we know what Cthulhu is, what he wants and what he'll do once gets it. Obviously there are different interpretations of the mythos (I don't pay much attention to those stories hat establish a family tree of Great Old Ones) but it's still very much a top down affair.

[ReHerakhte]

Thanks for your response Linden, I had two or three of your points on my own list with my biggest being the vast difference in both world settings and what the PCs are capable of achieving against the enemy.
I was taken aback by her comment because I've never thought the two games were particularly similar and to be frank, I've been stewing on it since last night
If you have no objections, I'm inclined to print out your list as a player handout when I try to pitch DC to my game group (you said what I wanted to say but much more succinctly, my list is paragraphs of waffling!)

[Linden]

If you have no objections, I'm inclined to print out your list as a player handout when I try to pitch DC to my game group (you said what I wanted to say but much more succinctly, my list is paragraphs of waffling!)

By all means, please do mate .

My feeling is that both games are about a similar kind of horror but take differing approaches. I think of it as being like the difference between Alien (CoC) and Aliens (DC).

[ReHerakhte]

That's a really good analogy and one that's also particularly relevant because most of my gaming group have seen both movies a few times.
Actually it's better than good, it's incredibly apt.
Thanks again Linden, this is exactly why I wanted someone else's opinion.

[Linden]

That's a really good analogy and one that's also particularly relevant because most of my gaming group have seen both movies a few times.
Actually it's better than good, it's incredibly apt.
Thanks again Linden, this is exactly why I wanted someone else's opinion.

I'm not sure I can claim it as an original idea - I might have read it long ago back when DC was first released and was being reviewed in the gaming press.