Shotguns!

[Linden]

I agree with everything you stated, but there was always one thing wich I did not like about the GDW weapons and that was the 9mm.

I particularly disliked the way it would often do less damage than a reasonably proficient bare knuckle fighter. I'm not sure how you'd uprate it:
Give it 2D6 damge and nil penetration it becomes equal to most .45 rounds which doesn't seem right. If you then uprate the .45 to 2D6 damage, Pen 1-Nil, it becomes become equal to 10mm rounds. Is that realistic?

[Zvezda]

Indeed, accoding to the original rules a human with an average CON (5) could stick a 9mm in his mouth, pull the trigger and walk away with a SLIGHT wound.
I have changed nothing since I met the same obstacles you illustrated. If you raise the 9mm you have to raise all other weapon stats too. We have halved the hit points for PCs which makes the game a bit more dangerous but still does not solve the 9mm problem.
All I have done about this was to give some NPCs who use 9mm guns +P ammo.

[fenlason]

Just a few notes:

Shotguns are outlawed by Geneva convention for front line troops. Ironically, non-Geneva conflicts use them a lot. (Like Viet Nam and Iraq).

The folks at GDW recognized the lethality of shotguns at close to medium range. Their lead researcher, Greg Novak (who wrote several miniatures games on modern warfare), did his research well. If anything, the lethality of shotguns is low in the game and I suspect that is for play balance. A shot in the chest with a .45 may not kill you, but a shotgun most probably will.

As for other round types, I believe they are covered in T2k and TNE. Not necessarily well, but covered. But memory is the second thing to go... You can always scrape a copy of Fire, Fusion, and Steel from eBay and design your own over-under .22 magnum / 20 gauge. (The first longarm I ever fired, actually -- at dinosaurs)

The 9mm suffers from effects scaling in the design -- a problem in many systems where discrimination between weapons is needed. For example, to get the effects of a .45 into the game (knockdown, shock, pen, etc.) the smaller calibers lose their edges. .32's look a lot like 9mm, like .25 cal. etc. But to make the 9mm work, the larger calibers would look like tank rounds. The designer decided to make the 9mm suffer. The point is, any round will kill and in certain circumstances, they all should.

The lack of lethality of smaller rounds should be addressed to a large extent in DC3. But for v1 and 2...try the following.

Using the suicide case, I would double or quadruple the DAM rating at ridiculous ranges (like contacting the muzzle) -- then if the increased DAM did not kill, then use the lethal round rule (1d10 under DAM = death for heads and chests). Note that doubling damage to the head still applies. For a 9mm, DAM boosted to 4, then doubled (4D6 x 2), with a 40% chance of outright death even if you rolled all ones...makes the shot pretty lethal.

Note that Brandon Lee (the Crow) was killed by a shot to the head with a blank, so something will cause damage besides the round -- in his case a pyrotechnic designed to show gun blast. Anyway the DAM value is itself a tradeoff for damage caused at range, armor penetration, and other effects. But mostly to discriminate between calibers.

The suicide case is really useless in game play, where an assassin shot to the back of the head in my games did not need any rolls. If mercy was needed, roll to hit Easy, a natural 20 and the victim receives a critical wound to the head instead of death.


But you know? Weapon damage is always controversial...


Norm

[Paul Mann III]

The lack of lethality of smaller rounds should be addressed to a large extent in DC3. But for v1 and 2...try the following.

Using the suicide case, I would double or quadruple the DAM rating at ridiculous ranges (like contacting the muzzle) -- then if the increased DAM did not kill, then use the lethal round rule (1d10 under DAM = death for heads and chests). Note that doubling damage to the head still applies. For a 9mm, DAM boosted to 4, then doubled (4D6 x 2), with a 40% chance of outright death even if you rolled all ones...makes the shot pretty lethal.

But you know? Weapon damage is always controversial...


Norm

For "Point Blank" range I use this formula; Take the weapon range (say it's 12) and quarter it. That would be a 3 meter range for point blank. Point Blank is rolled at Very Easy (x4). MOst people would just say it's an automatic success, but if they roll it, there's a chacnce for a critical, and the Players always love that....

In my game a critical success (4 or more below the check, as per DC2ndED) means you can either choose your hit location or inflict double damage. If the average roll of a d6 is 3.5 then that gives you an average check of 7 on on the d10 if your hit in the head or chance. That alone make for a good chance of bullet death.

I also have a table based on the Traumatic wound table from Palladium. (X) amount of damage equals a CON check (from Very Easy to Very Difficult). Failure means you automaticlly increase your wound level by one level (scratch to slight, for example). A critical failure would result in two wound level increases. I use the same table for all traumatic wounds, but the checks are one level easier for limbs (arms and legs). I don't make them check for quick kill to the abdomen either, to show how much damage the belly can take....

Example. PC suffers 7 points of damage to the head, and survives the "quick kill" roll. He then checks CON and critically fails. His head was already at scratch from the 7 points, and is taken to serious. Of course this means consious rolls and (in my game) bleeding checks vs. CON every 30-second turn.

The final result, very real. The PC shoots himself with a small caliber, slug type round, and bleeds to death quickly and quietly. Had he used the .45 or the .357 he would have died instantly (or a better ammo type).


By the Way, the only damage I disagree with in the system is a .357 doing better than a .45 (this would never happen).

[Linden]

Indeed, accoding to the original rules a human with an average CON (5) could stick a 9mm in his mouth, pull the trigger and walk away with a SLIGHT wound.

I think if anyone did that in my game I'd rule it a critical hit to the brain case and declare them dead. I know people don't always die in these situations but to be honest I couldn't be bothered with the paperwork. Besides which, how much fun is it going to be roleplaying a cabbage? Not a lot I reckon.

[Zvezda]

@ Norm: I don't disagree with the damage rules at all. In fact they are the best I have ever seen and I use them for all my games now. The reasons you have mentioned are exactly those why I haven't doctored the 9mm. It just fits the game though I am not too happy with it. I hope that this probel, as well as that damn task resolution thing will be solved in DC3.

@ Rohrschach: I like the idea of picking a hit location. I'll look if that will work for my team. Your tables seem a bit too complicated for our type of gaming but also very interesting.

@ Linden: That's for sure. If you have the opportunity to simply apply the damage you want there is nothing wrong with a nine mm. But in combat they can't penetrate the scull, this is a bit too strange for me. Anyways, there is not much with can be done about it without changing the system.

[Paul Mann III]

@ Rohrschach: I like the idea of picking a hit location. I'll look if that will work for my team. Your tables seem a bit too complicated for our type of gaming but also very interesting.

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Yeah, they key to writing that kind of stuff is to keep it simple. For instance, the drug affect table, it can simply de a role-playing tool for the PC's. Tell them the attiditude, even if you dont apply the statistical effects, and then they can earn that extra XP for good role-playing. Most of my tables are for me, I've been running the game for over a dozen years now, and my players nearly have the tables memorized. Change sucks, but once your used to it, it's not so bad.

My guys are all pretty well abused on the rules, I change from D&D to Shadowrun to Rifts to DC or TW2000, and we've been together through all of them, so they pick up on new rules or tables pretty fast now.

[Zvezda]

According to what I have read in this forum the damage/wounds system of DC3 will be very nice. I have not seen or read them till this day however.

[fenlason]

Well I haven' really talked to the new rules very much. The weapon ratings are nott going to change, but damage is proba bly going to be based on an open ended dice roll. That means that in some cases a 9mm will kill outright.

But thewound system still favors PCs and it should. In DC3 PCs are bona fide heroes who have decided to challenge the dark.

I expect some movement on DC3 over the holidays.

[Zvezda]

Ohh very good Info, thanks a lot. Hmm yeah I remember the open end thing. Very good. I am happy that the PC/NPC thing remains as it was. I was so happy with that idea. It also made it a lot easyer to play the NPCs normally humans cease fighting once they are wounded but in an RPG it is very difficult do bring this to a realistic....well I am going off topic again...