Looking at the initiative rules I think they unduly favour the monsters, especially things like a Ravager, which can move at blinding speed and carve a party up while they’re still trying to pull out their guns. The problem strikes me as particularly acute for new characters who tend to have very low initiative values (at least my group does). I know there’s been at least one variant Initiative rule in Demonground and I’d like to suggest another and run it by the members here. It’s adapted from the old SPI/TSR game Bughunter, an Aliens style boardgame based on the Sniper! WW2/Modern series:
The GM takes 6 counters numbered 1 to 6 and puts them in a cup or similar container.* In the first phase of combat he/she draws one counter from the cup without looking beforehand and turns it number side up. Only those monsters/PCs whose initiative is equal to or greater than the number on the counter can act in that phase (with highest initiative acting first). Repeat the draw for each subsequent phase of combat. At the end of the turn mix the counters up, put them back in the cup and start the draw again (if anyone’s left standing).
It occurs to me with this system higher initiative monsters are still probably going to give low initiative parties a beating but there’s enough of a random element for it not to be a sure thing.
Does this sound like a workable system? Can you see any really obvious flaws that I might have missed?
*Possibly you could utilise a deck of playing cards but using only the cards numbered
1-6.
Initiative
Initiative
"There's a lot of dignity in that, isn't there? Going out like a raspberry ripple."
But it gets six actions anyway?* Possibly more as, if I recall correctly, it has an Init of 7.Zvezda wrote:This would give the reaver six actions per turn! I think that is something of a flaw.
*I am using the 1st edition rules. I understand there was some modification to the initiative rules in the 2nd edition.
"There's a lot of dignity in that, isn't there? Going out like a raspberry ripple."
It was my mistake, I am so used to our house rules that I forgot the phase/turns thing.
If I remember correctly the original DC initiative rules really sucked. I have not used them for more then a decade, they are ridiculous. I just have looked them up again and I don’t understand what has people driven to use them. After a few unsatisfactory combats we have switched back to the T2K initiative and combat rules. They are still clearly in favour of those with military experience but somewhat more playable.
They go somewhat like this:
A Turn is five seconds long, every body can act in every turn. Six starts, than five and so on. Only characters those initiative exceed five (6+) get a second action in every turn (at half their INI skill) when every character has acted a new turn begins. This prevents low initiative characters from acting only once ever 30 seconds. You don’t have to go into a real fight, just take a look at a watch. No one can only act once ever 30 seconds. Only one action can be used for movement. You can run and fire if you have two actions but you can’t run twice the distance of someone with only one action.
For more realism (and book keeping) the following rule can be used: Each player calls the characters action for the turn than all tasks are resolved simultaneously without the possibility to change your action before the next turn.
I hope everything is clear, but if not I’ll be glad to explain.
If I remember correctly the original DC initiative rules really sucked. I have not used them for more then a decade, they are ridiculous. I just have looked them up again and I don’t understand what has people driven to use them. After a few unsatisfactory combats we have switched back to the T2K initiative and combat rules. They are still clearly in favour of those with military experience but somewhat more playable.
They go somewhat like this:
A Turn is five seconds long, every body can act in every turn. Six starts, than five and so on. Only characters those initiative exceed five (6+) get a second action in every turn (at half their INI skill) when every character has acted a new turn begins. This prevents low initiative characters from acting only once ever 30 seconds. You don’t have to go into a real fight, just take a look at a watch. No one can only act once ever 30 seconds. Only one action can be used for movement. You can run and fire if you have two actions but you can’t run twice the distance of someone with only one action.
For more realism (and book keeping) the following rule can be used: Each player calls the characters action for the turn than all tasks are resolved simultaneously without the possibility to change your action before the next turn.
I hope everything is clear, but if not I’ll be glad to explain.
That's fine thanks. Just been looking at Marcus's 15 second system in Demonground 6. I quite like the look of that.Zvezda wrote:
I hope everything is clear, but if not I’ll be glad to explain.
I suspect very few people (if anyone) uses the original system unmodified. As you say it's ridiculous.
"There's a lot of dignity in that, isn't there? Going out like a raspberry ripple."
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Fiannaidhe
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:30 pm
- Location: Alexandria, Virginia--USA
Marcus' Initiative rules, RULE
We talked about initiative before in another post my opinion is the same now as it was then: I love the Initiative system introduced by Marcus Bone in Demonground issue #6. It takes a little getting used to but I believe it is more fair, yet true to the players with a higher initiative.
Roll 1D10 and add your intiative. Your number of actions and when you go are determined by subtracting 5 from your total, and continuing to do so until you reach a positive number greater than zero.
Example1: My initiative is 4 and I rolled a 10 on a D10. 4+10=14. My first action is on 14, my second action is on 9, my third and last action is on 4.
Example 2: I rolled a dismal 1 on the D10 this time. So 4+1=5. My first action is on 5, and sadly it is my last action since the GM only counts off from 15 to 1 for the combat turn/round.
I love this rule because it shakes things up. Sometimes you get the computer geek getting a lucky break in combat and being able to do more things than the renegade andrioid combat monster.
Two Thumbs up
Roll 1D10 and add your intiative. Your number of actions and when you go are determined by subtracting 5 from your total, and continuing to do so until you reach a positive number greater than zero.
Example1: My initiative is 4 and I rolled a 10 on a D10. 4+10=14. My first action is on 14, my second action is on 9, my third and last action is on 4.
Example 2: I rolled a dismal 1 on the D10 this time. So 4+1=5. My first action is on 5, and sadly it is my last action since the GM only counts off from 15 to 1 for the combat turn/round.
I love this rule because it shakes things up. Sometimes you get the computer geek getting a lucky break in combat and being able to do more things than the renegade andrioid combat monster.
Two Thumbs up
Bob
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" What you have there is what we refer to as a focused, non-terminal, repeating phantasm; Or a Class 5 full roaming vapor. .... Real nasty one too!" ~ Ray Stantz, Ghostbusters
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" What you have there is what we refer to as a focused, non-terminal, repeating phantasm; Or a Class 5 full roaming vapor. .... Real nasty one too!" ~ Ray Stantz, Ghostbusters
Re: Marcus' Initiative rules, RULE
That's the one. I'm thinking of introducing it in my game.Fiannaidhe wrote: I love the Initiative system introduced by Marcus Bone in Demonground issue #6.
"There's a lot of dignity in that, isn't there? Going out like a raspberry ripple."
(from "initiative..." by Braxen, dated Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:15 pm)
If I may, we have developed/experimented with five alternate methods, only two seem appropriate. I included the one the players prefer below. The Combat Turn duration does not seem to have any effect on the game’s mechanics, unless you have a real NEED to track actions per minute. This variant retains the affects of a higher initiative; characters with a higher INIT scores would most often act before a character with a lower INIT score (based in 7 being statistically the most common roll); but still allows a bit of random variation.
Initiative Score Modified Method
The Combat Turn is changed to one minute and is divided into 12 five-second Combat Phases. To determine Initiative, the player rolls 2d6 subtracting their character’s INIT score (a result of 0 equals a 1); this is the Phase in which the character can take their first action. Lower number acts first, the GM “counts up” the initiative 1 thru 12; when a character’s initiative is called, that character can perform his first action. The character can continue to perform one action per phase in the subsequent, consecutive phases. Simultaneous actions are performed in order of highest to lowest INIT score, then AGL score.
Example: A character has an Initiative of 3; the player rolls a 6 and subtracts 3, equaling 3. GM counts, “1, 2, 3…”. The character can perform his first action when 3 is reached. He may perform his second action on 4 and he may perform his final action on 5 (if not used for defense).
It is fairly smooth and is similar to many other RPGs; so it seems easier for new players to DC to get used to.
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Characters with a higher initiative will more often then not go first. For example; a creature with a 6 initiative will always go within the first 6 phases, where as a student with a 1 initiative can start on anywhere from 1 to 11 (yes, I know there will never be a 12 using 2d6-n, I tried to stay within the current dice pool). This method attempts to keep the advantage in the hands of those with the higher initiative, but reduce the “you are dead before you can scream in terror” affect of the original system – and players who have characters with a low initiative can, at times, get bored while watch all those ex-military type have all the fun.
If I may, we have developed/experimented with five alternate methods, only two seem appropriate. I included the one the players prefer below. The Combat Turn duration does not seem to have any effect on the game’s mechanics, unless you have a real NEED to track actions per minute. This variant retains the affects of a higher initiative; characters with a higher INIT scores would most often act before a character with a lower INIT score (based in 7 being statistically the most common roll); but still allows a bit of random variation.
Initiative Score Modified Method
The Combat Turn is changed to one minute and is divided into 12 five-second Combat Phases. To determine Initiative, the player rolls 2d6 subtracting their character’s INIT score (a result of 0 equals a 1); this is the Phase in which the character can take their first action. Lower number acts first, the GM “counts up” the initiative 1 thru 12; when a character’s initiative is called, that character can perform his first action. The character can continue to perform one action per phase in the subsequent, consecutive phases. Simultaneous actions are performed in order of highest to lowest INIT score, then AGL score.
Example: A character has an Initiative of 3; the player rolls a 6 and subtracts 3, equaling 3. GM counts, “1, 2, 3…”. The character can perform his first action when 3 is reached. He may perform his second action on 4 and he may perform his final action on 5 (if not used for defense).
It is fairly smooth and is similar to many other RPGs; so it seems easier for new players to DC to get used to.
--------
Characters with a higher initiative will more often then not go first. For example; a creature with a 6 initiative will always go within the first 6 phases, where as a student with a 1 initiative can start on anywhere from 1 to 11 (yes, I know there will never be a 12 using 2d6-n, I tried to stay within the current dice pool). This method attempts to keep the advantage in the hands of those with the higher initiative, but reduce the “you are dead before you can scream in terror” affect of the original system – and players who have characters with a low initiative can, at times, get bored while watch all those ex-military type have all the fun.
Kevin GM/DM
Roll'em Again Gaming Group
Oregon Chapter
"In a world of games ... WE are the Gamers"
Roll'em Again Gaming Group
Oregon Chapter
"In a world of games ... WE are the Gamers"
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shade_1313
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:14 am
I know this discussion goes back a ways, but I only just found the site... DC player who started 15 years ago with my brother's group when I moved in with him, just out of high school. The ref for that game had scrapped the init system for a while, but his perspective changed a bit when he started considering that a higher initiative score didn't so much mean that the character was faster than everyone else, but that they kept their head cooler and were able to take more USEFUL actions in a single game turn. That kind of logic swayed me, too, although I heard about a slight modification to the original DC initiative system that I liked and used when I ran a campaign a few years later.
Basically, it boiled down to this. Everyone gets a number of "chits" (whether they be card, or plastic, or little slips of paper or whatever) equal to their initiative score. At the beginning of the turn, everyone's chits go in a bowl, and as the ref pulls them out, they get to go. So the higher initiative characters still get to go more times than others, but there's uncertainty about exactly when everyone will go relative to everyone else. Worked pretty well, too, so long as the ref is prepared beforehand.
Basically, it boiled down to this. Everyone gets a number of "chits" (whether they be card, or plastic, or little slips of paper or whatever) equal to their initiative score. At the beginning of the turn, everyone's chits go in a bowl, and as the ref pulls them out, they get to go. So the higher initiative characters still get to go more times than others, but there's uncertainty about exactly when everyone will go relative to everyone else. Worked pretty well, too, so long as the ref is prepared beforehand.
Interesting way of doing it. Not unlike the Bughunter adaptation I had in mind but a lot more personalised. Like it.shade_1313 wrote:
Basically, it boiled down to this. Everyone gets a number of "chits" (whether they be card, or plastic, or little slips of paper or whatever) equal to their initiative score. At the beginning of the turn, everyone's chits go in a bowl, and as the ref pulls them out, they get to go. So the higher initiative characters still get to go more times than others, but there's uncertainty about exactly when everyone will go relative to everyone else. Worked pretty well, too, so long as the ref is prepared beforehand.
"There's a lot of dignity in that, isn't there? Going out like a raspberry ripple."
My guess would be they have chits equal to their Initiative score which go in the pot along with everyone else's. Think you'd need one of those blank counter sheets with lots of individual colours so one can be allocated to each PC and NPC. That said I never bother with individual initiative for each monster. If the PCs are scrapping with a bunch of Ravagers the minions are treated as all going at the same time.Zvezda wrote:How are NPCs treated in that system?
"There's a lot of dignity in that, isn't there? Going out like a raspberry ripple."
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shade_1313
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:14 am
larger, more complex combats pretty much require some fudging, or batch initiatives for NPC critters to work well, but the system (with a little on the fly simplifying) worked well even in the big end fight for "heart of darkness"
i think my favorite aspect of it over the normal init system is the randomness... sometimes, that initiative 1 character or NPC is just going to be in the right place, right time, to do things first.
i think my favorite aspect of it over the normal init system is the randomness... sometimes, that initiative 1 character or NPC is just going to be in the right place, right time, to do things first.
