I have a question about the timeline of the setting

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Zvezda
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Post by Zvezda »

I thought it was rather the cost effectiveness than the cost of the ammunition which led to the end of the G-11. After all iit wasn't as marvellous as the movies and video games portrayed it. If I remember correctly they finally managed to prevent the gun from exploding but reloading single rounds was still not possible and all that stuff.
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ReHerakhte
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Post by ReHerakhte »

I should have been a bit clearer in my explanation. Some cyberpunk game websites claimed that the cost of changing over to caseless ammo from cased ammo would be too expensive to be worth the effort. So it wasn't the cost of the ammunition but the cost of changing to a new type of ammo that they claimed would cost too much.
The G11 started life sometime in the 1960s and by 1970 both Heckler & Koch and Mauser had working prototypes to fulfil a West German army requirement for a weapon with better accuracy than the current generation of infantry weapons.
Once Dynamit Nobel switched to a denatured rocket fuel for the bullet propellant, H&K gained the lead and could really push the design to greater potential. Mauser dropped out sometime in the early 1980s and eventually dropped out of the military weapons market altogether.

Despite what many may have said in criticism, the H&K G11 is still a remarkable rifle and while it may not be the wonder weapon many computer games make it out to be, it still deserves better treatment than any RPG ever gave it. It fires a 3-round burst so fast, all 3 rounds have left the barrel before the rifle has even begun to recoil. It fires 3-rd bursts at a rate of fire of 2000rpm and only the Ingram M10 SMG comes close to that (and that only has a ROF of 1100rpm). It is so well sealed that it will float if dropped into water and in the G11K2 version, you could carry three magazines on the weapon (the centre mag being the one in use).

On a weight by weight comparison, you could have a G11 with 510 rounds for the same weight as an M16 with 240 rounds or a G3 with 100 rounds. The whole reason that you can't reload the ammo from the G11 is that it has no case, the projectile is embedded into the propellant along with the primer. The propellant is completely consumed upon ignition and the primer is literally sucked out of the barrel by the propellant gases as they force the projectile downrange.
As for loading single rounds into a magazine, H&K provided a stripper clip to allow the user to do just that and in their literature they made a big mention of issuing just three mags of 50-rds capacity to the individual rifleman along with a stripper clip and reloading packs of 5-rds each. Even with just three mags, a rifleman would still have more ammo than the typical 7.62mm G3 load of 100-rds in 5 magazines.

The design proved so successful that a light machinegun was made with the same technology, it could carry 300-rds on the weapon for a weight of less than 8kg. It's even more remarkable for the fact that the magazine didn't use a spring mechanism to load the rounds into the chamber.

My only complaint about the whole system is that the ammo is micro-calibre and doesn't have the lethality of heavier ammunition such as 7.62mmN. The smaller calibres were designed on the idea that wounding the enemy was more effective than killing him because it could take as many as four soldiers to move a wounded comrade to an aid post, thereby removing up to five soldiers from the fight. Unfortunately, the scientists who came up with that idea all believed that any enemy would care enough about their wounded to try and save them, the reality is, many nations do not care about their wounded.
My preference is for a heavier projectile even if it's slower moving. When I was still in the Aussie Army I used the L1A1 SLR, L2A1 AR, F1 SMG, M16A1 AR, M60 GPMG, L3A3 MMG (British manufactured M1919A3), L4 Bren LMG, MP5 SMG, F88 Austeyr and the F89 Minimi and during cross training with New Zealand, United Kingdom and Unites States forces I got to use the L85A1 & M16A2 ARs, M14 rifle and L7 GPMG. While the 9mmP & 5.56mm weapons had better ROFs, the 7.62mmN weapons could punch through trees and car bodies and still hurt the badguy behind them. I don't want to wound the badguys, I want to make sure they absolutely cannot get back up and wound me! In the Dark Conspiracy world, I'd want to use the hardest hitting weapon I could get, the G11 is nice and pretty damned cool but just doesn't do enough damage for my liking... unless you use 3-rd burst and then you use up 3 times the amount of ammo so 510 rounds becomes equivalent to 170, still better than the G3 with 100-rds but only by 70%.

What's really scary is that I managed to write up nearly all of this just from memory alone...
I'm such a gun geek :shock:

Cheers,
Kevin
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Zvezda
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Post by Zvezda »

Aha, okay thanks now I see what you mean. Boy, we have a serious tendency to go off topic...but it is just that interesting. I am not too scared that you wrote all this from memory. To say the truth I am rather happy about it. :wink: Many new and unknown facts for me. I am not sure if the Arbakan fires that fast, but I think it is fast enough (and still too expensive). It seems as if the inventors of the G-11 where not the biggest fans of that 'new wars' theory.
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Post by ReHerakhte »

[slaps own forehead] DOH! :x

I completely forgot the AN-94. When operating in 2-rd burst mode it fires at a ROF of 1800rpm, again using the idea that the projectiles have left the barrel before any recoil is felt by the shooter thereby significantly increasing accuracy.

The problem with most RPGs I think, is that some weapons concepts were not well understood or the game writers didn't do enough research. For instance, the G11 in DC has ROF:3, Recoil- SS:2, Brst:3. That really doesn't give any idea of the rifles different rates of fire and its accuracy at different rates.
It also seems the writers just assumed it fires single-shot or a 3-rd burst all the time and nothing else but in full-auto it only has a ROF of 600-700rpm. Compared to other rifles in the GDW books, a weapon with a real world ROF of 600-700rpm should have been given a game ROF of 5.

So (in my over inflated opinion!), I think the G11 should have had stats more like this: -
Full-auto ROF:5, Recoil- SS:2, Brst:4, Range:50
3-rd Burst ROF:3, Recoil- Brst:2, Range:55
With the AN-94, the 2-rd burst Recoil should probably be Brst:1, Range:+5
For me, that gives enough game difference to reflect the real world improvement of such a high ROF without making the weapon the ultimate BFG - I still prefer 7.62mmN or 7.62mmS to 5.56mm or 5.45mm - I'm a die-hard fan of the L1A1/FAL and would happily carry one of the FAL-inspired bullpup rifles some US companies are making, like the Kel-Tec RFB http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn75-e.htm

Cheers,
Kevin
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Zvezda
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Post by Zvezda »

If I remember correctly it first started in one of the Challanges that weapons came with different rof and recoil rates. But the stats you use are not bad. Hmm that's a nice rifle...somewhere I have seen a FAL PDW! I hope I find it again. Meanwhile have a look at this!
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Post by Nanostorm »

I know this is sort of thread necromancy, but I'd like to add something to the G11 discussion. Many years ago I was attending a local gun show, and a representative from H&K were present to man a booth showing the newest of their guns to the Norwegian army and any on-lookers.

I had a long and interesting talk with their representative who took the time to listen and answer my questions even though I was young at the time (probably in my late teens serving with the Norwegian army if I remember correctly).

After discussing the weapons he had with him in detail (I was somewhat of a gun-nut even then :)), I asked about the fate of the G11. He seemed surprised that I knew of the weapon, and initially did not seem to want to discuss it, but after a while he told me that the economic pressure on Germany following their recent reunification was part of the reason, but also that it would not be appropriate for a re-united Germany to front such breakthrough a in weapons technology. So I guess there was also political ramifications leading to the discontinuation of the project.

Rune
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ReHerakhte
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Post by ReHerakhte »

Hey Rune, that's actually very interesting for me.
One of my main interests is equipment of the Cold War era and with so many projects being started but never completed or with some equipment having very limited use, it's sometimes difficult to get a complete picture.
So for me, any extra information is welcome.

I can understand the Germans not wanting to give the wrong idea when adopting new weapons. With Germany saying to the world "Look, we can be reunited and not turn into the Germany of the 1930-1940s", fielding advanced weapons at the same time might have stirred up some paranoia amongst a few nations :twisted:

Apparently the Germans have not actually closed the book on caseless ammunition (and a weapon to fire it, e.g. the G11), as they felt it was wise to keep apace of current development. Now with the US Army investigating the latest trends in caseless ammunition (particularly to reduce weight loads for soldiers), the political ramifications of Germany equipping with advanced weapons might not be so harsh. Maybe sometime in the next few decades we might see a new & improved G11 design?

Don't worry about thread necromancy, it certainly doesn't bother me and often brings up new ideas. So again, thanks for the additional insight into the G11.
Cheers,
Kevin
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Post by Nanostorm »

Yeah, I think it's worth to remember that here in Europe the ramifications of WW2 was felt by almost everyone, civilians and military personnel as well. Everybody could relate to it in some way (even I knew quite a lot of people who was interned, jailed, fought in the war or lost family and friends). In the early 90's many of the people who lived through that time was still alive, and a Germany on the rise, with breakthrough in military technology gave them a very bad feeling (even though it was totally different times). So I guess that was a factor in their decision not to push the project forward.

Now it's different, and following in the footsteps of the USA (who may have continued the research started by the Germans) I would not be surprised if we see a continuation of the G11 from Germany in some form. One thing is definitely sure, the Germans know their weapons. I have lots of hands on experience with the old G3 and have tested the HK416, and it's flawless machinery :)

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Retro-Tech

Post by manodogs »

I posted this over to the Yahoo Group already, but I think it bears restating:

I am designing Metrodome and the DC world in which it fits (though you should be able to "drop" it into any campaign) strictly by the books when it comes to technology. Without realizing it, the designers actually laid the blueprint for the retro-tech they were trying to include in the game's original incarnation; most of that stuff was dated by the time the books hit store shelves!

Originally, I developed an Internet Expansion Set on the old site, but I ditched all that. I'm going solely with the Data Services on p. 31 of DarkTek and assuming the height of street-level data communications is comparable to AOL 5.0 or the like. Further, nothing significantly technologically advanced from what is presented in the canon will be allowed (generally speaking) - no RAZR phones, streaming media (along the lines of what we have today), nor anything along those lines. For the most part, BBS/FidoNet is the standard for computerized telecommunications and the Web will never "take-off" the way it did IRL due to lack of commercial interest.

In effect, the Internet in DC is pretty much what purists (of the "information should be free" variety) wanted it to be IRL because there was no Dot-Com Boom/Bust or commercial interest. The p*rn industry developed most of the Web tech with which we are familiar today and seeing as how DVDs never even took-off (to any great extent - they're available) in this world, they remained content to corner the VCR market. Interestingly, beta actually made a comeback (for those who don't know, beta is/was used by news outlets and TV stations, etc.).

Seeing as how phones were specifically mentioned as one of the many low-cost items now being manufactured in places like Mexico (where their factories quit being upgraded in the 50s-60s, so everything made there bears those designs, etc.), you have to use the old-style modems (the ones you cup over the receiver) - I mean, that alone gives you an idea of the situation and is about as Dark Conspiracy as it gets!

As for mobile phones, etc., forget about it. 90% of the population lives in the megaplexes and the phone companies have neither the money, personnel, nor inclination to maintain towers in the Out-Law. They work great within the megaplexes and several miles outside of them; after that, it's over. 10% chance of working more than 25-50 miles out, due to weather conditions and lack of towers. The technology for the Data Services exists and is available, and cellphones are a status symbol just like they were when the books were released, so they're pretty prevalent and you can get all the Data Services you want on them. Likewise, computers are about the same as they were in 1991-92: only we nerds have them and know how to use them.

However, as for Darkling "Bibles" or anything along those lines, forget it. Dark Minions use Empathic means, not technological ones - at least not conventional technological means - and they would never be that remiss. Even if they were, their human collaborators would know well enough to keep that from happening. Now, speaking of human Darklings, there is always the chance that one of their SIGs (private newsgroups/forums/chatrooms) could be intercepted and that might provide Hunters with a wealth of information, but remember that they are literally going to have only as much information as they need and are little more than puppets, so whatever you get will probably be pretty specific (as to a task/plot like "blow up this tower" or "infiltrate this TV station," etc.) - more adventure material than campaign (of course, whatever you learn on the adventure would be applicable to the overall campaign). And again, if it's all that important to any Minions' overall plans, they're going to opt to do it all Empathically.

I am working-up a "Compupath" (I don't know if that sounds silly or not - what do you think?) expansion, if anyone is interested in contributing. I don't have much for it, honestly. Anyway, Computer Empaths should have a better chance at all this type stuff. That's a really cool concept that seems integral to the game - I mean, that's about as DC-specific as it gets, aside from the Minions and DarkTek - and, like a lot of other things, it has absolutely no coverage. But, we got me... and since I no longer have a gaming group, this is all I can do anymore, so I'm down for it. But that's not my strongpoint - I was never even good at running Netrunners/the Net in CP and I'm a really good CP GM - so I'd love to have some help. I'm gonna dig-out the Shadowrun books (really fun game for such a bad system! - but I wouldn't even have any of those books, were it not for a lot eBay purchase) because I think they had something along those lines, and I think there was a "technomancer" in one of the many Rolemaster or 3rd-party fantasy supplements I have... I'll look.

Like I said over there, the tech is stuck in about 1991-92 and that's the very height of it! The brunt of it is actually closer to the mid-80s and I'd let anyone buy anything out of any catalog from up to 1989 at the prices listed. Outside of corporations and DarkTek, and several advancements made by Resistance folk, that's not just the level of tech available, it's as far as it ever got!

Anything published in those compatible books (T2k Weapons and Vehicles, et.al.) can be had for the list price, but that's pretty much the limit. This perfectly captures the retro-tech feel, nearly 20 years later! It also makes perfect sense, in that the technology would not keep advancing the way it did IRL - they would be more concerned with other things and that's where the technology, science, and so on would be focused... such as figuring out DarkTek! And also ecological sciences, food and water shortage issues, housing and urban development, et.al. - not entertainment and communications.

I can't imagine why the Web in its current form IRL would ever exist in a world like that of Dark Conspiracy.

As for why they would waste the steel and materials on muscle cars, it's because rich people will buy them - the end! If there's a buyer, they will make it. Those corps pay scavengers to scour the Out-Law, hauling back abandoned autos and scrap. Those scavenger units have security against the biker gangs and a mechanic or two, along with a handful of bluecollar workers who hook-up the hulks to the wreckers and bring them in. There's so much of that stuff in the abandoned suburbs, etc., they only need to melt it down and rework it. Because the market is so limited, they make those things in the older factories (Mexico, Cuba, etc.), which is why they look the way they do.
- [url=http://www.theweirding.net/RPG/DC/]ManoDogs[/url]
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