DC3 - Questions

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1Wolf
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DC3 - Questions

Post by 1Wolf »

Some time ago I'd ordered DC3. Back then I'd started reading through it and learning it, but then got distracted by other boring grown-up things. I've had some time to go back and pick up where I left off and I had a few questions and was hoping to get some opinions on a few things.

1) I noticed for the skills "Armed Martial Arts" and "Unarmed Martial Arts" it lists 2 controlling attributes: (STR & AGL). Maybe I'm missing it but I can't seem to find why or how that works. I see that for Energy Weapons there are 2 controlling attributes listed but that skill description specifically lists when to use STR and when to use AGL. There is no such detail for Armed or Unarmed Martial Arts? I also see that on the DC3 character sheet, Armed Martial Arts is listed both under STR & under AGL.

2) Which edition of DC do you prefer to use? Does everyone pretty much use DC3 exclusively now or are there any that prefer the 2nd edition? If so...why?

3) Which Initiative System do you prefer? Do you use the basic DC3 one? The advanced? Some other system?

4) The character sheet at the back of the DC3 book doesn't specifically list the cascades for a skill. For example, it doesn't list the various "Pilot" cascades, it only lists "Pilot". Why? How do you keep track of those cascades then? Do you just pencil in the "Specialty" on the line of the skill and assume that it is a given that all cascades of that skill will be one half of the specialty (and then, change that specialty and write in a new one if that specialty ever changes such as when a character gains more levels in one of the other non-specialty cascades)? Is there ever a situation where a cascade won't be half of the specialty?

Thanks!
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Morthrai
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by Morthrai »

As part of the team who worked on it I will try to answer your questions, though I cannot do so right now - the real world intrudes :? Give us a day or two!
Lee Williams.
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1Wolf
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by 1Wolf »

Thanks Morthrai.

I know the feeling. The real world is very... Intrusive. That whole grown-up stuff to do really needs to go away ;)
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Morthrai
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by Morthrai »

1Wolf wrote: That whole grown-up stuff to do really needs to go away ;)
Absolutely! 8)
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Morthrai
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by Morthrai »

Okay, after consulting with Norm here are the answers to your query :D

The original rules had STR as the controlling attribute for both Small Arms and Melee combat. Some referees prefer to use AGL as the controlling attribute. The selection of controlling attribute for these is a basic table rule that should be established prior to playing. The individual GM picks whichever controlling attribute they prefer.

The cascades for Pilot and other skills were left off of the charsheet due to space restrictions. The original charsheet was based on the DC I/II one that had all the skills listed. With the update to DCIII the number of skills increased making a 1-page charsheet difficult to fit. The pdf form-fillable charsheet alleviates these problems. If you prefer not to use the fillable part of the new charsheet, then just print out a blank one and fill in with stand-by pencils.

The form-fillable charsheet is available for free from DriveThru RPG.
Lee Williams.
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1Wolf
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by 1Wolf »

Thanks for the answers Lee. Much appreciated. I'm glad I asked because I never would have guessed that the STR/AGL were intended to be a table rule for preference of controlling attribute. Thank you!

Thanks for the tip on the form-fillable character sheet. I downloaded it from DriveThru but I think I'll need to "duplicate" it in Excel. I need to be able to data-enter all the fields and then save them off so that they are all in electronic format, and I also often need to add alot of custom pages to it...usually just to better organize equipment and who has what bit of equipment...where.

I did have another question about Hit Points. I noticed in the DC3 rulebook that there is an "Original" method for calculation of hit points and an "Optional" method for calculation of hit points. The "Optional" method seems to use the same formula as DC2. The "Original" method though seems to end up with way higher hit point numbers. For example, with a STR of 10 and a CON of 9 gives a base CHEST value of 57. 3 * (10 + 9) = 57. However, using the "Optional" version it would be (2 * 9) + 10 = 28. That means the "Original" method is roughly double the "Optional". I didn't find any mention in the DC3 rules of when, and under what circumstances the "Optional" method should be considered over the "Original" method.

So would that unbalance everything if my players were going through old DC1 favorites like "New Orleans"? What if my campaign consisted of a mixture of old DC1 stuff and newly published DC3 adventures? Should I stick with the "Optional" method instead of the "Original" method to keep the hit points from bloating and getting unbalanced? A while ago I took a couple players through "Ice Daemon" just as a few short sessions, and even using the DC2 rules at the time the characters seemed like tanks. I'd have to guess that doubling their hit points would make them seem invincible in the same adventure? Or...if I were to take them through one of the newly published adventures would they NEED all those extra hit points to survive? The characters are all currently DC2 and we'll be converting them to DC3...so I'm just trying to find what the best plan is.

What do you think?
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ReHerakhte
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by ReHerakhte »

I'll jump in on this (apologies to Lee!)
Basically - use the method for lower hit points if you want a more dangerous campaign, use the method for higher hit points if you want a more cinematic campaign where the PCs can shrug off minor injuries.**

I don't feel that using one method over the other would unbalance your game irrespective of what scenarios you are using. I think the primary considerations are: -
1. Do you want the Players to be a little more cautious with their PCs and worry about taking damage?
or
2. Do you want the Players to be able to take plenty of hits with very little fear of getting killed?

So, if you want superheroes, give them plenty of hit points, if you want normal heroes, give them less hit points!

**EDIT: Just wanted to add, there's a number of items the PCs can use to help them survive damage. If you give them reduced HP and this is proving too dangerous, allow the PCs easier access to protective gear and medical supplies etc. etc. If there aren't enough items in the book to satisfy you, people here have added gear to their games that we can post to give you a greater range of equipment.

I'd also like to add something regarding the Hit Points.
There's been a lot of talk in the past from Dark Conspiracy (DarkCon) gamers and from Twilight: 2000 (T2k) players (where the base DarkCon rules came from) that PCs seemed too much like tanks and didn't need to worry about injuries too much. Some Referees wanted ways to make the games more dangerous without being totally lethal to PCs.

There has been any number of discussions on various forums about this and suggestions included making damage more dangerous by increasing the number of D6 rolled or changing D6 to D10 or even D12 etc. etc.
However the easiest and least intrusive method of making the game more dangerous was to simply reduce the number of HP that the PCs were given in the first place.

One of the initial ideas that the game designers had when making T2k was that the PCs should be hard to kill because it would be annoying to have to roll up new characters all the time (given the length of time PC creation takes). They purposely gave the PCs many more HP than any NPCs so that the PCs could more easily survive the dangers of the T2k world (including lack of medical care).
When DarkCon was designed, they used the rules from T2k 2nd Ed. and so the PC hit points method was carried over to DarkCon.
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1Wolf
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by 1Wolf »

Thanks ReHerakhte :)

Part of my confusion was just semantics I suppose. DC3's hit point calculation is a bit confusing as what they call the "Original" method isn't really the Original 1st & 2nd Edition method for HP generation. The DC3 "Original" method comes out to about double the hit points as DC2. So if I were to convert my DC2 characters to DC3 and use the DC3 "original" method they would have roughly double the HP. According to the DC3 rules, the "Optional" method for HP generation appears to be what was used in DC1 & DC2. Seems to me that those names should be flip flopped and that "Original" should be the old DC1 & DC2 way and "Optional" should be this new "double" HP way.

My biggest concern was that I tend to use alot of DC1/DC2 pre-published adventures in my DC2 campaign so my big concern was keeping the "level of difficulty" balanced to what the creators of those original adventures intended. If I were to use that "Original" DC3 method of generating HP I fear it would make my characters twice as resilient and therefore the DC1/DC2 adventures become roughly twice as easy. I don't want the balance or difficulty to shift if I convert from DC2 to DC3.

Just out of curiosity ReHerakhte, which system do you prefer? DC2 or DC3? I'll probably post a separate thread on that subject as I'm curious what the general consensus is...whether most chose to keep their campaigns DC2 or convert them to DC3.

I've also got another question about that Armed Melee, STR versus AGL thing I asked about above...but I'll put that in a separate reply.
1Wolf
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by 1Wolf »

Morthrai wrote:Okay, after consulting with Norm here are the answers to your query :D

The original rules had STR as the controlling attribute for both Small Arms and Melee combat. Some referees prefer to use AGL as the controlling attribute. The selection of controlling attribute for these is a basic table rule that should be established prior to playing. The individual GM picks whichever controlling attribute they prefer.
As I was reading through the DC3 rules I ran into something that brings an additional question about this to mind.

If you were to look in "Conspiracy Rules" on page 291, in the "Skills by Cluster" list, at the "Melee Combat" cluster. Under "Armed Melee Combat" it lists 4 cascades...

Large Blade (AGL)
Small Blade (AGL)
Polearm (STR)
Club (STR)

So half of those cascades are listing "AGL" and half are listing "STR". So I'm a bit confused. In the Skills section for "Armed Melee" combat it listed as "STR/AGL" which was because the GM should decide, prior to the game as a house rule, whether Armed Melee Combat should be STR (as per the DC1/DC2 game) or AGL as you mentioned above. However, that "Skills by Cluster" chart leads me to believe that its not a house rule, but rather the "Blade" cascades are AGL and Polearm/Club should be STR.

Which is correct? Should all of the cascades be STR or AGL based on a pre-agreed house rule? Or should they be as listed in the "Skills by Cluster" chart?
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ReHerakhte
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by ReHerakhte »

Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to run the 3rd Ed. rules yet so I can't make any claims about preferences for one over the other.
I'm happy enough with the 2nd edition rules but I've pretty much run my games using 2nd Ed. with the inclusion of some Twilight: 2000 Version 2.2 rules and some House Rule modifications.

As for your other question, I believe the idea is that you pick whichever Attribute is appropriate to the situation but I really need to read the 3rd Ed. book again (it's been over half a year since I last looked at it and it's been longer than that since I last ran a game!)
Lee is far more knowledgeable about this so hopefully he'll be able to jump in soon and give a better answer.
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Morthrai
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Re: DC3 - Questions

Post by Morthrai »

1Wolf wrote:Under "Armed Melee Combat" it lists 4 cascades...

Large Blade (AGL)
Small Blade (AGL)
Polearm (STR)
Club (STR)

However, that "Skills by Cluster" chart leads me to believe that its not a house rule, but rather the "Blade" cascades are AGL and Polearm/Club should be STR.
As written yes that is the case, blades require AGL and clubs and so forth use STR. Of course, the Referee can always choose which they would prefer to use.
Lee Williams.
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